"It"

I would add the term..." PASSING" to the list

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:58:52 AM CDT

Passing?

She's Beautiful!

So sad that a life was cut short at such a tender young age and I hope the bastard that murdered her never leaves a prison cell.

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

---

by: becca @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:16:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I said nothing specific to Angie

or her beauty or the tragedy, I added an objectionable term

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:30:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know

I never said you did.  Did you read what I wrote?

I am supporting and agreeing with what you wrote.

Don't be so easily offended when someone agrees with you.  LOL

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

---

by: becca @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 13:59:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'd add "pre-op", post op", and "non-op"

 when used as descriptions for others, myself.

Surgery doesn't define a person.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 14:54:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wait I'm not so sure --

If I get my apendix out - then I should be required to identify as a post-appendix survivor.

No?

History never actually repeats itself -but it rhymes, (Twain)

---

by: cybelline1 @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:03:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Post-appendix?

Crimeny, why don't you just call me a bibliography. Or would it be an index? Sheesh!

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

---

by: TechBear @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:07:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Too Funny

I have never met a pun I didn't like.

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:26:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've met a few that were really only two-thirds of a pun

P.U.  

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

---

by: TechBear @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 16:04:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

GROAN!

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 19:21:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

appendix

If you have your appendix out, then that makes you a "woman of operative history".

---

by: Stephanie @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 17:38:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes and no

I think it depends on how they are being used, and why.

For example, the term "non-op" could be used to clarify that someone would like to have GRS, but can't, due to medical reasons; as a clarifier that this person is no longer pre-op, because due to circumstances beyond their control, they can't have GRS, which may not mean much to you or I, but I think is a big distinction to them. I say this from the perspective of having been there when someone got the news that her health made it impossible for her to have GRS, after having spent years saving up the money. It was heartbreaking.

Like Dys, I agree that surgery does not define the person, but I have heard too many people being really inconsiderate of people who are non-operative, without stopping to think about why. To have an open dialogue about it, we need the language.  

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:23:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Need-to-know basis: lover, doctor, possibly counsellor

Others don't need to know. On the other hand, if someone wishes to have a celebration of a personal milestone and invite friends, or explain their own choice, or make a generalization about factors that may affect a transperson's choice, fine.

---

by: NancyP @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 18:56:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Denver Media

I want to give credit to the Denver media, tv and print, for working hard to keep their reporting correct.  They have been working with me and others for several years and most of the reporters do their best.  However, there are still a few who refuse but they are in a very tiny minority now.

Pam,
J'aime ma Peau

---

by: Blonde Pam @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:16:22 AM CDT

I've said before

that I'm not as enlightened on this as I probably should be. So I'm asking.

I can't imagine doing what this jackass did, but if I dated a man who was still physically female, I would want to know. If I wasn't told, I would feel like I'd been lied to. It would probably (but I can't say this with certainty because I've never been in that position) mean the end of the relationship if I felt like there had been opportunity and reason to tell me but the information was still not provided.

I'm not at all saying that Angie deserved it, or that she in even the smallest way caused what happened. That's all on the jackass. But I am asking, is it unreasonable to think that she should have told the guy she was dating that she had an unusual history as a woman? And, if it is, why is it unreasonable?

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 13:37:32 PM CDT

My take

on the subject - and it is strictly how I, alone, feel about telling during transition: honesty is the best policy.  That however, is my 60 years of life experience speaking.  I also know only too well the fear that keeps someone like this young woman from telling her boyfriend the truth, a fear of consequences just such as what happened.  It's not hard to second guess after the fact, but if Angie was anything like the rest of humanity, it's very easy to rationalize not being honest because we "are waiting for the right moment to tell" or "don't want to rock the boat" or "hope the whole issue might just go away".

---

by: Jami @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 14:40:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

First Date

She met the guy over the internet.

This poor kid broke the number one safety rule of internet dating: Meet in a neutral place and never, ever let someone you meet over the internet into your home until you get to know them, and she paid for it with her life.

Given the background information that the Denver press got on this guy, including his criminal record, any girl who took him home would have been taking a big risk. Unfortunately, Angie did not know that.

My take is that this was just a naive kid who trusted someone she shouldn't have.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:00:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is not unreasonable, but

it ignores the simple fact that genitals do not make a person.

And, in so asking, you devalue the individuals.

Your reaction, however, is normal.  You would feel lied to, even though you weren't.

Most folks do feel that way.

Your reaction (its over) is probably a typical one -- in my experience, such a thing is the usual reaction.

It takes basically a sick sob to use that as an excuse for violence.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 14:52:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're right

genitals don't make the person, but they do make the sex (act). I don't think there would be a need to tell me on the first - or first several - dates. But if we got to a point in the relationship where it was clear sex was in our future, I would want to be told. More, I would expect to be told.

I'm trying to map this to the only thing I can reasonably compare it to, coming out, and it just doesn't map. Anybody who dated me would know I'm a gay guy. I wouldn't be dating a woman, and any guy who tried saying "But I wouldn't have dated you if I'd known you were gay! You deceived me!" after a date would be... well, just batshit crazy.

I understand not broadcasting it to every casual dating acquaintance. And I guess at any point after it got more serious there would be a fear of being seen as deceptive, even though it's really just a smart decision.

Huh. Tough call. I can see why it's a difficult topic, and probably sensitive for a lot of people. So how do people handle it? The teller, I mean, not the tellee.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:55:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Every possible way conceivable, lol

Yeah, it doesn't map to coming out.

Just as a note, if you were to be dating an FtM transsexual, you wouldn't be dating a woman, while if you were to go out with an MtF transsexual, you would be.

There's nothing comparable that I know of in a cisgendered gay male expereince that it can be mapped to, but, well, I've never been a gay male, so that would sorta make it tough for me to know for certain.

It is, near as I can tell, something unique to the T, and results because of the dichotomy between living authentically as yourself and the heteronormative requirement of genitals matching presentation.

As for how teller's handle, it, well, if you can think of a way, its been done, and then a hundred more besides.  There is no one, right way to do it, because people handle it in different ways emotionally -- both the tellee and the teller.

There is general advice to tell, such as "tell before sex" or "tell on first meeting" and all manner of other versions.

I have two bf's, one knows, the other one is in denial but knows. The one that knows identifies as gay, though, and the one that is in denial (he's been told several times and simply refuses to acknowledge it, although he's contacted it by accident a few times) identifies as straight.

Just those two cases alone should tell ya that it depends.

Often, though, especially in cases like this where there was obviously some sort of online thing going on, there comes a bigger problem:  people fall in lust with the idea of the person, and when those ideas are shattered by reality, all hell breaks loose.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 18:05:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Meeting People online

My BFF makes it a practice to always tell potential romantic partners that she meets online before meeting in person. Most of them don't really care (she runs in the BSDM crowd, and they tend to be pretty open minded). I have gotten a few very disappointed phone calls, but she feels strongly that it is better for both parties to know if it is going to be a problem before meeting in person.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 19:42:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes

Just as a note, if you were to be dating an FtM transsexual, you wouldn't be dating a woman, while if you were to go out with an MtF transsexual, you would be.

I get that part of it. I've only been aware of one MtF that I know, and no FtM. Talking with her was when I realized that my genitals weren't what made me male, my head is. Without my beans & franks I'd still be a guy and there'd be a level of mental discomfort because my body wouldn't match my head. I can't put myself into the space where my body had never matched what was in my head.

I hadn't thought about what a minefield dating could be in situations like this.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 20:04:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well, don't feel bad.

I mean, really -- don't feel bad about it.

How could you have known to think of what a minefield this can be?

being trans has all manner of odd things about it that hit at different points, but when it comes to anything that is sex or gender related, it always throws it off.

We only have to think about it because its critical to our lives, in the most literal sense. However, there, you have a similar potenital risk, given some of the hate crimes (such as that one a while back with the guy who went into a bar hunting a gay man).

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 00:14:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

First Meeting

I am listening to Mike Signorile right now, and he has Mike Peters, a reporter from the local paper where the murder took place. According to the reporter, the murder happened the first time the two had actually met in person - they had apparently been chatting over the internet for a while. My guess is that this is not something you broach the very first time you meet someone (we don't know if they chatted about her gender identity because authorities have not located her computer).

Peters also apologized for what seemed to be inappropriate reporting initially on his part. He was told by the authorities, including the police and the coroner, that a man had been killed in the apartment, and was given Angie's birth name of Justin. He reported her gender as male because he had no indication the victim was transgender. In fact, he remarked how odd he found it at first that none of the neighbors he spoke with could identify a man who lived in the apartment.  

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by: CPT_Doom @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 14:54:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ugh

According to the reporter, the murder happened the first time the two had actually met in person - they had apparently been chatting over the internet for a while.

Yeah, that puts a substantially different light on things. I'm still curious about my question in a general - not specific to this story - sense.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:58:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Numb

I can't believe another one killed. My heart and soul and prayers go out to her family. Another beautiful girl killed for livving an authentic life.

I can't believe that the politicians don't see that we should be a protected class. It's obvious the kind of violence we face on a daily basis. Therefore, I am forced to come to the conclusion that they are blind to it as a tip of the hat to the gods of the right wing evangelicals.

I'm sure as long as we stay "it's" to them, it will make all of it much easier.

No matter how thin you slice it, it's still boloney.

---

by: atrivialgirl @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 13:56:16 PM CDT

At least the Post article was well written

That, at least, is progress.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

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by: TechBear @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 15:13:43 PM CDT

Etiology?

The act itself was simply terrible. And in a very odd way makes an argument for passge of a fully-inclusive ENDA, but more importantly a change in the way we view sexuality. I don't know how we can make either of those occur this year. I don't know how we can make the second occur anytime soon, but there needs to be an effort.

Seems like his "reaction" has to do more with the entire "homophobia" that most men are ingrained with, even queer men. One wants to deny it. And if you discover that you've been serviced or have serviced someone who was designated to a different sex at birth, what does that make you?

I think the answer is invariably "gay." And the immediate reaction. He probably felt somewhere like he had to kill her in order to fully hide his crime. Just incapable of seeing anything other than dual and immutably separate sexes. His shame, her death, our tragedy.

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by: Nichole @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 16:46:33 PM CDT

Is this criticism of the Denver Post or not?

Yes, obviously the UK Metro reporter needs a whack in the head with the clue stick.

But... The Denver Post article looks to me to say that there is something wrong with Andrade's use of "it" to refer to HER. Look at what follows "it":

"That alone speaks to the brutality of the crime..."

"'You get the sense that maybe he wasn't seeing Angie as a person'..."

That is very very different from saying Angela should have been called "it." It seems instead to say that if somebody looks at transfolk as "it," then there is something wrong with that person, not with transpeople themselves. Isn't that the point?

Yes, the casual use of "it" needs to be criticized. But we shouldn't criticize a writer for trying to make the criticism we want!

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by: dewdrop_world @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 17:31:42 PM CDT

No.

Please read closely:

...there's just not much to add to the GLAAD Media Guide's indirect commentary on the alleged killer's dehumanization of Angie Zapata...

My comment related to the Post's article wasn't with the Post, but the dehumanizing comments reported by the alleged killer in the Post's article. I was using the GLAAD Media Guide to highlight the term "it" is dehumanizing.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 17:59:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks

Thanks for clarifying.

---

by: dewdrop_world @ Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 07:48:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

To refer to her as an

"It" or as a male is inexcusable.

I am not going to wade into the "when to tell" or "if to tell" issue as I've no experience with this.

I know that my friend of operative history(going to ingore the depreciatory use of that style of address) told her wife just about everything in her history except her dates for childhood diseases on their first date.

She told me this was the result of a bad past experience, but I do not know the circumstances of that.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 18:22:11 PM CDT

My only experience with this

Was with my former partner.

We had been friends for two years before we both ended up single at the same time and finally started dating. Two weeks into the relationship, she pipes up with "You know we probably should talk about this before we are half-way to bed together. Are you OK with being with someone trans?"

My reply was "If I had a problem with it, we never would have gotten to the point where we are having this conversation."

I could not for the life of me figure out why she was asking. After a bit more conversation, I understood why she was concerned (bad past experience), but it honestly was never an issue with us.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 20:14:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This just hurts so much

This entails such triggers for me. I guess I have been avoiding wading in to stave off the pain.

When Gwen Aruyo was murdered I clipped every news article I found and I cried.  Her murder broke my heart - her trial hardened whatever remained.  The TV movie ripped me open again.

I don't think I have stopped bleeding since.  I have spent a third of my life investigating violent crimes, interrogating violent criminals and forcing them to be accountable over time.  Cops get them for a short time during the initial investigation.  I would get them post-conviction for years and years.  I hope I can say that every day of that time I held them accountable.  Community supervision is another form of long-term interrogation.  Over the course of many years we forced offenders to reveal more and more of the actual crimes they've committed - the one's they were not convicted for.  I have gratefully sent tens of dozens of offenders to prisons for decades of their lives.  A few died there.  I didn't spare them a tear.

The upshot is that I have years of their terrible stories still lodged in my memory and experience.  They ache.

The death of this angel, Angie effects the very core of my being.  Every victim, trans or not, young, old, disabled or vulnerable, I cherish their spark of life.  A part of me dies with them.  We are all diminished.

I pray for strength for her family and those left behind.  I pray for strength to the hundreds of lives tarnished by the actions of the brutal asshole who killed her including the readers here who marshall their love and support.  I pray for this new star placed on the breast of heaven.

History never actually repeats itself -but it rhymes, (Twain)

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by: cybelline1 @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 18:51:22 PM CDT

that's our child, not just someone's child

 Angie, was a pretty girl, a soul searching for what we all search for and hope for.
 Is there a safe website for transgendered folks to meet who they want who either doesn't care about the stage of their transition?
 Angie met this a-hole online anyway. I'm sick and sad that another precious young person died violently like this.

 It's SO unfair. Is there no safe place, or people to turn to just to date and have happiness with?

   I feel like we all lost a daughter...

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by: Regan DuCasse @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 21:15:37 PM CDT

Any site for Trans folks and folks who don't care...

...about the stage of transition would almost automatically be worrisome for me, because I'd wonder if the person's just genuinely looking for someone, regardless... or if they're just another 'chaser'.

---

by: CassCarter @ Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 23:44:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

tsgirlfriend

Run by a husband and his ts wife, is supposed to be reasonably safe and all, but I do not vouch for it myself as i don't involve myself there.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 00:03:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm sure attracting a trans chaser is annoying, and hurtful

But I'll trade you the bug chasers I've come across online looking to be infected with HIV/AIDS.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:22:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

depends on the chaser.

But I'll pass on the bug chasers.

Some transchasers are, well, decent.  In my expereince, though, they are rather rare, and the majority are uncouth and, in their pursuit of what is ultimately to them a bit of living erotica, they fail to come to terms with the simple fact she is a woman or he is a man.

I've known chasers who are straight, gay, lesbian, bi, and asexual.

I've had some who go on and on and on about how this I am or that I am and they inevitably bring up the point about how it doesn't matter until I (in my usual, ever so pleasant way, of course) catch them in the midst of something they say and ask them why they just insulted me.

've had them ask me to have sex with them within five minutes. I've had them tell me how much they want me to top them (for the record, I do not top -- I leave that to my soon to be ex-roommate). I've had others literally get shaky telling me they want to top me.

(In case anyone wonders, I've been doing needs assessments here, and that means I've gone into several of the local clubs, and, well, I do like to make sure the girls are well positioned).

I've been checked for operative status before two words are spoken -- physically.  Never by the same person, as I'm prone to smile and return the favor less pleasantly.

And all of that, and the man I live with and share a bed with right now is, no doubt, a chaser. Who is still learning.

He's nodding *[eye roll]*. And grinning!! ugh!  (men are pigs)

I can't soundly condemn all chasers -- not all of them are bad, and they are just as varied as transfolk are. some gals do -- and they shudder when I mention my bf.

But I don't particularly worry about them, because they are more or less putty in a strong girl's hands, and will do anything for you since all they want is a moment of some sort of personal erotic pleasure.

And there are a LOT of opportunistic girls out there.

Tranny chasing is easy. Doing it well takes money.

He's not grinning anymore.  Need to distract him.  Later all...


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:21:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

To address a point...

There are open minded folks out there who do not care about the status of transition who are not chasers, and who will respect your identity.  

One of the biggest fears and concerns of trans women is the fact there are not people out there who would be interested in them regardless of op status who are not chasers.  I am going to say outright...there is, and this is from my own experience. It just takes some artful questions to really find out where one is, and putting some of your own doubts behind you.

I am now dating is a guy who is bisexual but leans straight. He has not demonstrated any of the creepy chaser behaviors, but he has dated trans women before (just because somebody has dated trans people before does not make them a chaser).  Rather he seems to be a guy where the person matters more than the body, and he tends to be attracted more to those who identify as female, whether they are cis or trans.  Straight and bi guys like this are hard to find, but they are out there.  There are good guys out there both straight and bi who will respect your identity as a woman, and treat you as such, regardless of op status.  Finding these people is not easy though, and requires patience enough to set up a screening process.  Its just not impossible to find people to date, and once you set up the process, you will notice there are plenty out there.

My advice as far as dating sites, avoid the trans specific ones as they do attract chasers.  Ok Cupid has a way to set up screening questions before people even contact you.  There are specific questions regarding the trans issues you can use.  There is also quite a bit you can do with regards screening people out if they message you on a dating site, and hints you can put in your profile without stating out right that your trans.  I would say it is a good idea to tell people before ever meeting them though.  It avoids dangerous situations, and people are more likely to think things through logically.  Even the violent assholes.  Alot of people I know who have transitioned use Ok Cupid regardless of orientation or opp status, and have had some success. Myself included.  

When it gets down to it though it is about asking the right questions early on.  There is no shame in being intrusive with guys as far as questions go.  Women have a right to do this just for safety.  This is especially true for internet dating.  You should not be ashamed of asking hard questions, I feel it is a necessity for all women when it gets down to it, whether or not their trans. There is a way to ask these questions without coming off as abrasive.

 

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by: tfeminist @ Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 10:27:17 AM CDT

Angie Zapata's death

We are all so stunned and pleased that the district attorney in Weld (a very conservative county in CO--Marilyn Musgrave's district!!) is willing to charge a hate crime in addition to the murder charge in this case.  

I hope that the Zapata family is receiving the support they need now.

kelleyann

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by: kelleya1 @ Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 20:08:32 PM CDT