CRG & Company's Plans Following Their Montgomery County Anti-Trans Initiative Defeat

Little light had somethng to say about this.

Not directly, but given your closing statement, I believe its very apt.

Our lives are an act of war.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 02:56:57 AM CDT

No Need to Question...

One only can wonder how these conservative "Christians" would behave if someone voted on the civil rights of conservative "Christians."

You can see it all the time, esp in December. They scream "persecution" and "the end of the world is coming. This is the Tribulation!"

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by: Kesnit @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 06:27:39 AM CDT

When will the Transgender get it ?

There are 2 bathrooms, Male and Female. Just as your use of the male bathroom presenting as a female is likely to cause all sorts of trouble and complaints, so too is your presense in the female bathroom if your birth gender is known to be male. Someone is always going to complain.

Your decision to transition is YOUR decision and one that does not guarentee you a place in either bathroom no matter how you present yourself. It comes with the territory and its not all about YOU!

Nobody can legislate social interaction. Either you will be accepted as a part of the gender group you aspire to, or you wont, but for sure trying to legislate your place in a particular bathroom will never win the hearts and minds of people, it will just make them more bitter toward you and all those that come after you.

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by: Leigh_S @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 09:43:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I hope you enjoy eating a$$

Dys, Autumn, Maura, et al, will be serving you yours, and doing it much better than I could. This is the 21st century, why don't you give up your lifestyle of ignorance and join us here.

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by: AggieCowboy @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 10:08:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I expected nothing less ...

many people only hear what they want to hear...  common sense has no place in the 21st century.

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by: Leigh_S @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 10:27:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's common sense

It's common sense...

That the Earth is Flat.

That the Sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, none of this heliocentric nonsense.

I agree with you in your first statement. That people do tend to hear what they want to hear, and that's a general rule applicable at all times and places. We must guard against it.

I only partially agree with you in the second. It's not that common sense has no place in the 21st century, just that it is not always reliable.

And not everyone makes a "decision" to transition. There are rare intersex conditions that make it inevitable. One in 40,000 for FtoMs, one in several million for MtoFs, but they exist nonetheless. Regardless of common sense.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 11:42:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I also agree with your first statement

unfortunately, most of the people I know who only hear what they want to hear are the religious right.

As for Common Sense...I strongly disagree. Common Sense always has a place in society.

It is NOT Common Sense to discriminate against a minority group simply because you don't like some aspect of thier life.

It is, however, Common Sense to educate yourself so that you know all the facts, especially with a "controversial" issue.

It is NOT Common Sense to dislike/hate/etc. someone simply because they are different from you.

It is Common Sense to stop discriminating because if even one person is discriminated against, it affects all of us.

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by: AggieCowboy @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 15:48:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So, where should I pee then?

In your coffee?

All sorts of trouble:

Sexual Assault

Verbal and Physical Abuse

Murder

...

Sure, go ahead and 'complain',.....

I'M USING THE WOMEN'S ROOM.

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by: heterotic @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 12:20:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And who is the judge?

That decides who is accepted and who is not?  You?  You can't spell "guarantee" so I doubt you are qualified.  What if I decide I don't want you in my restroom because you are too fat, or too chinese, or too religious?  There are literally millions, probably tens of millions, of women on this planet who don't fit someone's definition of what a woman should look and act like.  There has already been a well documented case of a cisgendered woman being excluded from a women's restroom because she appeared "too masculine".  One of these days you are going to wake up and realize that your over-religious moralizing doesn't comprise the majority that you think, and that there are plenty of people out there who look at what you are with the same disdain you cast upon "the Transgender".

Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes

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by: Kiera_Lynn @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 13:20:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hello Leigh :D

Question for you.

Is it not rather your discomfort of being identified as someone who is not a woman, for whatever the reason, that brings you to this argument?

Is there no fear in you that such legislation will somehow set you, personally, back in your life?

When will you get it?

Its not about just transsexuals anymore. Hasn't been for over a decade. Its about everyone.

Even you.

I've been using the women's restrom for ages, sweets.  And in all that time, there was only 1 complaint.

1.

From a pair of girls who thought is was funny to do so.

Gender is not "male".  Sex is male.  I realize you don't believe that, but then you are free to ignore decades of science demonstrating such is the case.

What would you do if I paid the 40 bucks to find out where you live, and then went to your usual haunts and let them know you were assigned male at birth.  BY accident, of course.

I've forgotten -- was it you that noted you don't really care if someone who doesn't pass is mistreated?

IF not, you expressed agreement with that above -- per your post, not being accepted as the correct gender isn't anyone's problem but the person's.

Including yours.

and yet, you are making an effort here, an effort to express that point on a blog where people you disagree with can be found regularly.

Legislation is never about winning hearts and minds. Its about ensuring that such an opportunity to do so exists.

And you are working against that opportunity in your post.

And say hi to the other gals.  Excepting one, I'd be surprised if'n they don't come along.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 14:05:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Leigh_S, You probably need to read up some on the bathroom issue...

...It's not just transgender people who have problems using public restrooms -- masculine appearing women have problems too ... please read up on Tanya White, Khadijah Farmer, and bathrooms use in White Male Privilege & Women's Fear Of Crime Intersecting With Gender Expression & Public Restrooms. There's lots of links in that post, as well as in the Related area at the bottom of the post.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 18:32:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

When will these people get...

Trans folks represent no threat to privacy or safety of women.  There is not one instance of a trans woman acting in a predatory manner towards women or children.  Rather there are HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of instances were people act predatory TOWARDS US, based on bigotry such as hers.  

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by: tfeminist @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 08:42:10 AM CDT

Also

What she doesn't understand about the case is the original petition for signatures is DEAD.  You only have a limited time period in Maryland to collect signatures. That's it.  You have to do it in that time period, and do it right in that time period.  That did not happen, the court ruled they did not do it right, and that the county board and lower court misinterprated how strict the law is. Collecting signatures is not going to help her anyway, the higher court basically signaled with this, that they are going to apply a very strict standard.  

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by: tfeminist @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 08:48:29 AM CDT

Perhaps Leigh S. misunterstands...

Perhaps Leigh S. misunderstands the intent of the recently passed law in Mongtomery County (MD). It simply adds transgender persons to the list of minorities who live in the county and ptotects them from harmful actions. It amends the already existing laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis or race, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation, physical condidion, etc. in such categories as public accommodations, Taxi cab service, housing, cable tv service, etc. There is not a word in the law that talks about "restrooms".
Her comment that: "Nobody can legislate social interaction" simply shows her ignorance of the purpose of laws in the U.S. Almost all pertinent laws address issues of "social interaction" and specifically enumerate the rights of citizens against whom others may not discriminate in the public arena. Your rights to be a bigot, speak hatred, or espouse unpopular opinions are not denied; what you do in the privacy of your own home is your right. When you take action publicly against those you hate, the law speaks loudly against those actions and makes them illegal.
That is what Montgomery County has done. I would hope that folks like Leigh S. would check the facts of this situation in Mntgomery County (in which Iam a resident) before she spouts this kind of nonsense.

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by: Pineapple @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 13:20:03 PM CDT

No.

She doesn't.

Leigh is not stupid.  She's smart as a whip.

Just prejudiced.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 14:07:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Calm down dears .. your slips are showing

Firstly ..

NOWHERE did I say that anyone should not use the appropriate bathroom that expresses the gender they are presenting as, even if one is pre-op or GASP ... non op!

Re-read what I did say !

Secondly ..

Nobody outside of your own body told you to transition. You may have done so for any number of reasons, none of which are anyone else's business. If you did not consider the fact that you may run into social issues which include being thrown out of bathrooms, then you really didn't think it through well enough. Making it everyone else's problem is whining.

Thirdly ..

Legislating about your percieved right to be treated equally in a bathroom that is set aside for a particular gender is simply nonsense. As a male you would not consider entering a woman's bathroom when a male bathroom is present. Claiming female status through transition does not give you any more legitimate right to use the woman's room ... YET YOU MAY BE GRANTED THAT RIGHT... by those that own it, ie: females. To tell women that you will simply take that right without their consideration is nothing less than employing male privilege.

And lastly ..

I am not in the least bit religious.

I reckon Obama is the best choice given the choices.

I can spell ga-ren-tee when necessary. This is not one of them.

I do believe that everyone should be responsible for their own actions.

I do so hate whiners.

... and I have been there done that .. a very very long time ago, even got the T-shirt :)

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by: Leigh_S @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 16:02:35 PM CDT

I call BS

You are religious and you just proved it with that garbage about male privilege.  Instead of lighting a menorah or nibbling on some stale bread you worship at the altar of biological determinism.  Your religion has a dogma just the same as the others, and you are taking part in the most ancient of religious rites; attempting to employ that dogma to prove your status, which, according to at least one person here, is more of passing privilege than one of biological sex.

Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes

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by: Kiera_Lynn @ Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 16:19:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, I made the choice when to transition.

  Hi Leigh S.   You make some very interesting statements.  Ones that seem to come from some one not totally clueless about trans issues.  Although I would say your comments mirror a person that was here harrassing a few months ago who went by the name perisphone, I am not going to dig in the past posts to locate her garbage.

 But to my point.  Yes, I made the choice when to transition. Yes I fully understood the ramifications of that choice.  The interesting thing is that there where many who transitioned before I did.  And of the 100  plus trans-men and women I have met, only three including me had any kind of bathroom incidents.

 Mine was my youngest coming in to the ladies room when she was 10 and saying 'Hi DAD' in the middle of a full house.  The other two where just a bit freaked out as they thought they were read.  And when they exited they were worried that someone might come up and beat the SHIT out of them.  Other than that I haven't really heard of any others.  I am sure some here might have things to share.

 I have been asked if I have a spare napkin.  Had other women ask me if their make-up looked OK.  

 Autumn has given you a post with many links.  She has posted many things in the past.  What is strange is all the predator child molesting garbage has never happened.  I would say that 95% of the population had no clue of our exsistance until a few years ago.  But as time passed we began to get discovered by many and the education of who we are needed to begin.  And just as the religious wackos hates Gays, it was time for them to Hate us as well.

 Now that it is know that there are people like us who come out of our shells and go through the journey of transition. we need a safe place to pee.  And just because some of us are pre-op or non-op doesn't mean we should have to use a restroom that doesn't match our gender. The FUNNY part, if I dare, is we have been pooping in the stall right next to yours and others for decades, and no one knew and no one complained.

 It has now only become an issue because those who have gone through transition that didn't commit SUICIDE helped pave the way for others to follow.  And now that our exsistance has become widely known, we must have laws that protect us from violence and those who may begin the journey so theirs may be a safer one.

 So if you really think this is about male privilege, think again.  If you want to protect children and women from predators, keep them away from priests and ministers.  Transgender people are not the threat we are made out to be.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:11:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yikes .. a little sensitive are we ?

Today is my second day posting to this blog. It may well be my last. I have recieved my first warning via email from Autumn Sandeen that one of my posts constitutes a TOS violation. In part, here is the alleged violation stated by ms. Sandeen.

The title of a recent comment of yours was "Calm down dears .. your slips are showing." In the third point of your comment, you wrote (emphasis added in green italics):

Legislating about your percieved right to be treated equally in a bathroom that is set aside for a particular gender is simply nonsense. As a male you would not consider entering a woman's bathroom when a male bathroom is present. Claiming female status through transition does not give you any more legitimate right to use the woman's room ... YET YOU MAY BE GRANTED THAT RIGHT... by those that own it, ie: females. To tell women that you will simply take that right without their consideration is nothing less than employing male privilege.

The title of your comment reads as disrespectful of trans people as being excitable, lesser creatures than yourself, and your highlighted statement questions reads as not respecting that transgender women as females. Essentially, implying to transgender women that they are not females, and may only use women's public restrooms when natal females give each individual trans woman approval to use the women's public restrooms by an unidentified group of natal women, is an example of not respecting the gender identity of transgender people, and an example of not treating transgender women as an equal with other blenders that identify as part of the LGBT community. Therefore, your comment title and highlighted comment statement are considered inappropriate, and are deemed to be deeply and widely offensive in accordance with the Pam's House Blend Terms Of Service.

This sort of blatent censorship of truthful open speech on the subject of bathroom use does the transgender community a disservice in whole because it attempts to silence opposing views that may be helpful to understand the problem from a different perspective. Lets examine what I said in the above referenced statements.

Firstly the title itself.

In my original post on the subject I got replies that were angry, with some going so far as to assume I must be one of those right wing christians come to burn down the sinners.  Many merely took my post as an attack against the community instead of a thoughtful bipartisan commentary which it was meant to be. It appeared to me that the term excitable was right on target. So, instead of replying to individual's I tried to speak to all with one title which said it all "Calm down dears" .. meaning there was no need to call out the militia - and - "your slips are showing",  which in this case is meant as a reference to the fact that many slipped by the intentions of what I posted which was to present a different view point.

However, it would seem that my words flew right over the heads of most and were taken as offensive without even the slightest attempt by many to look at my comments in any sort of constructive light.  

So I wonder .. could the sensitivity of the transgender community actually work against them ?  If a group of people circle the wagons and take up the banner of being victim's, can they expect to assimilate, learn and grow?  Do they become so sensitized that they pre-judge all opposing views as attacks against them ?

In the body of the comment I wrote I said :

Legislating about your percieved right to be treated equally in a bathroom that is set aside for a particular gender is simply nonsense

Is there not a movement within the trangender community to push for legislation that would allow them the right to use the bathroom of their choice ? Are bathrooms not marked in bi-gender mode and set aside for a particular gender ? Are those bathrooms not considered off limits to members of the opposite gender ? Where does this statement of fact deviate from what we all know to be a truth in today's world ?

As a male you would not consider entering a woman's bathroom when a male bathroom is present.

Isn't the above quote true ?

Claiming female status through transition does not give you any more legitimate right to use the woman's room ... YET YOU MAY BE GRANTED THAT RIGHT... by those that own it, ie: females.

When someone begins transition across gender lines do they expect that it gives them a right by way of their presentation to be accepted without question in the bathroom of their target gender? Are Mens bathrooms not owned by males and are womens bathrooms not owned by females ? In the end analysis, assuming your birth gender is known by the users of that bathroom, ie: in work settings where one has transitioned on the job, do they not expect some to complain that their privacy is being violated ? Does the transgender community really believe that they have an absolute right to be accepted simply because they are human and have to use bi gendered bathrooms - and - would it make them feel better if they had a third bathroom choice where everyone would know their transgender status by virtue of using that bathroom ? Who is expected to pay for the additional cost of building and maintaining those bathrooms ? Should it be my tax dollars ? should I as an employer be forced to accomodate one or two individuals at my expense simply to make them feel better - and - even if I did would the transgender community simply see that as segregation and complain about that too ? Why are the transgender community not legislating for men to be more accomodating in their bathrooms ? If it's simply a matter of the need to pee, why does it matter which bathroom someone uses if all being equal, there was not an issue of violence toward the transgender individual in the mens room. Women may not offer violence but it would seem they may not also offer indignation. Women are simply expected to move over and share the stall.

To tell women that you will simply take that right without their consideration is nothing less than employing male privilege

Is that not what the transgender community are doing when they seek legislation to silence those that may take offense ?

_______________________

For these words I too am being sileced with threats of TOS violations yet I too have shared the same issues.

I transitioned in 1978, have been post op since 1985. I am not an HBS supporter. In fact I have taken the HBS to task on their claims as being elitist.

I have long term experience and that is all that I have. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make me an expert.

What my experience hopes to do is shed some light on these issues that I too have faced during my own transition, respecting the right of others who have not shared my need to transition. It is not all about me. The world is a big place and there are many that will accomodate our needs without having it forced down their throats. Those that will not make the accomodations will never make them no matter how many laws one passes. One will never legislate morals, they can only hope to silence.

If you silence me, you silence yourself.  

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by: Leigh_S @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:31:28 PM CDT

Come on, Leigh, you're dancing.

You disagree with certain points of the leadership of the HBS crowd, but you otherwise are firmly rooted in the same prejudice they are stuck in.

You know as well I agree with you on those issues pertaining to HBS, but that we split on pretty much anything else involve terminology and inclusiveness.

You do bring up a good point, though.  There is a marked failure to have a sense of humor among those active online regarding trans issues.

You are notably different (I still love the zingers you left me on my blog.  Very well done!), in that not only do you have a sense of humor, you let it lead you.

However, in much the same way that Cathryn got smacked upside the head, or Phyllis, you are presenting your message to a group that you already know is overly sensitive.

Its akin to making racist jokes in a room full of the targets of that race during a race riot.

Not the sharpest move, Leigh.

However, you state, rather bluntly, that men are forcibly taking from women the right to use the bathroom.

Seriously.  You say the privilege is on their side, when I have to point out that's wrong, hon.

Its too broad a statement, and, therefore, wrong, fundamentally.

Also, the construction of the statement is structured that although you use the idea of transgender, you use it in a manner that expressly makes them not women, which is indeed a violation of the TOS regarding transfolk.

That you don't see it could in and of itself, be construed as your privilege in action, but you and I know its reflecting an inability on your part to see CD's, DQ, GQ, and other non binary sorts as expressly different from transsexuals and not women.

Furthermore, your argument is incomplete -- but I suspect you wont realize why, given you probably didn't see the marginalization you actively engaged in.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:08:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hi Dyss ... I've been .... expecting you

You are right in that I do hold much more affiliation with the HBS crowd than the transgender.  They represent something more familiar to me. I do not see Cd's, DQ's GQ's and others as women .. no!  I never will. Should they be allowed use of a female bathroom ?  I will answer that question with a question ...

Have you ever been in the ladies room of a gay nightclub ?

Not a pretty site eh!

My statements are what they are. If you want to see them as too broad thats your right to do so. I see them as fair and middle of the road.

Humor in transgender affairs ? .. OMG  ... the humor is unbelievable if only one has the ability to be able to laugh at their own situation.  More should .. it keeps one sane!  

I was at the bank yesterday... I was seeking a business loan and the manager said that he felt confident that I was not the type to default ... I replied

...........  I wouldn't bank on it !  :)

I got the loan anyways ...

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by: Leigh_S @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 19:08:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Strange non-answer

And of course you've been expecting me.  Its not like most folks don't know this is my second hangout.

Interesting choice of a response, and if one takes it as stated, then I have to think that you are in favor of such.

You see, I've been in the women's restroom of several gay bars. A country and western one, a general public one, one that actually sorta caters to transfolk, one that became a gay bar after the owner got into a fight with a few transwomen here and then realized there was money to be made there and so reopened it after settling as a gay bar, and more.

And aside from not going with my preferred style of decorating (I like a simplified country and homestead styles, a little shaker influence, some wright or sullivan touches), I never saw anything that wasn't pretty.

People went in, used the restroom, and went out. In all of the above modes and more (including straight).

So as near as I can tell your answer is "hell yeah", and you are simply putting up an argument as a devil's advocate.

Unless, of course, I have better taste in my bars than you do.

But then, I tend to favor straight dance clubs, where everyone boosts my already prodigious ego through the roof.

(incidentally, I've found going into men's rooms in gay bars to be more iffy (filthy in a couple cases) and in one, the restroom was unisex. Urinals next to stalls, alternating.  Shocked me right out of my pumps. Restroom was dingy.  Intentionally, I found out a little while later.)


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 01:15:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ahhh Dr Jacobs

I am more than a bit appalled that a physician would lend her name to such a prejudicial endeavour til I read a statement by Dr McHugh on the website of Maryland Citizens for Reprehensible Government. Were Dr McHugh not merely a cipher and the medical incarnation of the Roman Catholic Heirarchy and their willing apologist for the sexual scandals, he might carry a bit more weight.

I wonder how you would explain your and Dr McHugh's views of gender disorders to Dr C.M. McMahon, a highly regarded addictions specialist and psychiatrist, who happens to be a Lesbian of operative history and whose medical accomplishments have been recognised by Who's Who?

"Dr Mac" just might differ with you more than a wee bit, and that lady is formidable.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 19:43:53 PM CDT