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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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Biden, Palin and that pesky marriage thing

by: Pam Spaulding

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:15:00 AM EDT


My wrap on last night's debate included the clip of the exchange between Senator Joe Biden and Governor Sarah Palin on the topic of same-sex marriage. With a couple of hours of sleep now under my belt, I wanted to return to the matter.

First of all, it's noteworthy that the issue of marriage equality has largely been ignored by both presidential candidates, given that three marriage amendments are on the ballot (FL, CA, AZ). This debate presented an opportunity to have the vice presidential candidates speak about the issue to a huge, engaged audience.

Moderator Gwen Ifill couched the question this way, in order to point out that Palin signed a bill extending partner  benefits in Alaska (she opposed this, but given the state's high court decision, didn't veto it).

Do you support, as they do in Alaska, granting same-sex benefits to couples?
Biden was first up, and did not hesitate in his response. The relevant nugget:
[I]n an Obama-Biden administration, there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple...We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do.
He went on to state that the Obama/Biden ticket's position is that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.
This left Palin precious little wiggle room to differentiate herself other than to say she's personally not a bigot.
But I also want to clarify, if there's any kind of suggestion at all from my answer that I would be anything but tolerant of adults in America choosing their partners, choosing relationships that they deem best for themselves, you know, I am tolerant and I have a very diverse family and group of friends and even within that group you would see some who may not agree with me on this issue, some very dear friends who don't agree with me on this issue.

But in that tolerance also, no one would ever propose, not in a McCain-Palin administration, to do anything to prohibit, say, visitations in a hospital or contracts being signed, negotiated between parties.

Joe Biden's answer boxed in Sarah Palin, forcing her to give a feeble, confusing answer that probably left her supporters on the far right unhappy. One -- she holds the same position on marriage as Obama/Biden, so that was off the table. Two -- it left her to use a "some of my best friends are gay" position, and acknowledged that gay and lesbian couples deserve some rights. [BTW, the Log Cabin Republicans have no basis to say that Palin's comments reflect any evolutionary thinking on McCain/Palin's part, it only raises the question of what rights they intend to deny gay couples. I eagerly await the delusional cheerleading reaction on the LCR blog.]

More after the jump.

Pam Spaulding :: Biden, Palin and that pesky marriage thing
To have her say this before millions had to give James Dobson, Lou Sheldon, Gary Bauer and Tony Perkins agita. On the other hand, her answer is clearly misleading in terms of the general audience not well-versed of these issues, and sadly, moderator Gwen Ifill did a poor job of following up. The obvious question is whether, in a McCain/Palin administration, they would support civil unions as an alternative to marriage equality, since Joe Biden slyly asserted that they hold the same overall position. Biden:
The bottom line though is, and I'm glad to hear the governor, I take her at her word, obviously, that she thinks there should be no civil rights distinction, none whatsoever, between a committed gay couple and a committed heterosexual couple. If that's the case, we really don't have a difference.
Palin didn't object, and only stated:
"Your question to him was whether he supported gay marriage and my answer is the same as his and it is that I do not."
This was a grand slam moment, given what is politically viable in a nationwide election in 2008. As has been the case with all of the Democratic candidates in the primaries (save Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich), this election cycle's answer has been to state that "marriage" is between a man and a woman, but validate that our relationships must be given equal legal status. This answer isn't a pleasant one to hear, but both Sen. Biden and Sen. Barack Obama know full well that the foolish "separate but equal, leave it to the states" position will ultimately be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Palin's statement -- and silence -- can now be parsed and is rife for followup. John McCain (or Gov. Palin) should now clarify the ticket's position:exactly which benefits should be denied to same-sex couples on that continuum between hospital visitation rights, legal contracts that they approve of and full-blown civil marriage?

Now of course I realize that for some of you out there who are frustrated by the inability for the Democratic candidates to advocate for civil marriage equality by name, but I'll take purity of intent at this date and time over haggling over the word "marriage" in a presidential race. The courts have in California have already decided separate is not equal and marriage equality in Massachusetts has not destroyed the family, civilization or the earth. Moreover, we all know that while social conservatives are clinging to the word marriage, their agenda is to ensure that there is no proliferation of civil unions either -- they do not want any social validation of our relationships, regardless of what they are called.

At this point and time, I presume the far right realizes that a complete opposition to any rights for same-sex couples is perceived as outright bigotry by the majority of the American public. In addition, gay couples can already cobble together barebones rights (albeit at great time and legal expense) that heterosexual couples take for granted. Marriage seals those legal rights and hundreds more in one fell swoop, with the additional benefit of social recognition.

The social conservatives are the ones trapped in an inconsistent moral and ethical position regarding their "close gay friends" or family, since they support institutionalizing and preserving current discrimination against those loved ones. Sarah Palin acknowledged the humanity of gays and lesbians (as opposed to the predator strawman anti-gay, professional "Christian" organizations have relied upon each election cycle) in her life. The hypocrisy, now exposed, is breathtaking.

The Obama/Biden position traps them in legal separate-but-equal inconsistency on same-sex marriage, particularly since its status is in flux all around the country. Their view is markedly different than McCain/Palin because they promote the extension of rights at every other level.

I'll take the latter any day; McCain/Palin, along with Dobson and his ilk, have a morally bankrupt argument to defend.

The exchange from last night:

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Obviously Gwen wants to marry her girlfriend Condi
No other reason to ask the question as it hasn't figured in the 2008 campaign in any way whatsoever --- up to now.

"Tolerance" is a cheap insult, and the bitch knows it.  


Whaaaaat?
If it doesn't figure into the campaign, it should figure into an enlightened voter's thought process, especially when a gay marriage ban by way of amendment is up for consideration in California. Why does this support an insinuation that Gwen Ifill is a lesbian? Should Condi be her partner because they're both Black?  

[ Parent ]
Don't get the complaint here
If nothing else it was a question in the 2004 VP debates and I was frankly glad to get the contrast between then and now.

Gay marriage hasn't been as big an issue nationally this year as it was four years ago but it's been present and it's fairly certain to be at least asked about in the two remaining debates where domestic policy is an issue. And here in California it's absolutely figured in the 2008 campaign in a major way as we're actually voting whether same sex marriage should be legal or not and the Presidential candidates have quietly taken opposing sides on how California should vote.

I don't get this idea that liberals should be afraid to discuss gay rights...


[ Parent ]
And not so quietly agreeing
that marriage is man/woman.

[ Parent ]
my son's reaction
My son is 10.5.  He was horrified to hear Biden say that Obama/Biden do NOT support same sex marriages.

As the mama, I was proud of my son's reaction.

Very proud.

I agree with David about the "Tolerance" insult.

MsNomir


If Sarah will tolerate my relationship
I'll tolerate hers.  Hey, I'm even okay with the state giving her all the benefits, but I'm not sure I want to call it "marriage".  I have a personal definition that marriage is a union between two human beings.  Sarah's not quite proven her humanity yet.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Fully Agree Pam....

I was actually floored that BIDEN came out so strongly for FULL CIVIL RIGHTs being protected by the Constitution.  and once Prop 8 is defeated, there will be full equal MARRIAGE rights in California, Massachusetts and New York.  Therefore, there will be many, many celebrity gays who will marry and everyone will have to start referring to their partners as SPOUSES,...and it will all seem so commonplace.

...and economically,iIf more of a case of business profitablility and job satisfaction and retention can be made also..other states will have to follow suit to maintain a viable commercial competitive edge.

Also, DADT repeal and a full ENDA will need to be passed to keep us militarily and financially competitive in the global arena. This can only occur under an Obama administration.  Please there can be NO QUESTION about who one should vote for in November...as we have only these choices.

 



It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


Seemed like Biden was Endorsing the "Civil Unions for Everyone" Position
Although I don't think that's what he really meant. I get that people are pissed that Obama and Biden don't feel they can simply come out in favor of full marriage equality, but Biden's statement may be the most full-bodied endorsement of equal same-sex couple rights from any major party candidate ever.  

[ Parent ]
Defining marriage
This exchange finally articulated to a large mainstream audience why marriage is important in a way the LGBT community has been unable to communicate to the larger population for years.

Talking about the civil benefits of marriage (hosptial visitation, ownership rights, insurance, etc.) makes marriage equality real to an non-LGBT fluent audience that may otherwise find the "equality of our love" for man-man / woman-woman too icky.

Speaking with great flourish about love is wonderful, but it's the kitchen-table style couching that will sell the issue to the majority of the mainstream.

Non-LGBT fluent folks may not understand or even want to comprehend how a man can love another man, but most know well how a hospital works or the complexity of retirement planning or health care, etc.

While I would of course prefer a lightning strike of immediate equality, I am very pleased in the specifics of the language and the reality of the discussion of the VP debate - and more importantly, the audience that it reached.
 


The same sex relationship question
was the most disjointed moment of the whole debate.  In my opinion everyone is hearing and reading Palin's qoute wrong.
"But I also want to clarify, if there's any kind of suggestion at all from my answer that I would be anything but tolerant of adults in America choosing their partners, choosing relationships that they deem best for themselves, you know, I am tolerant and I have a very diverse family and group of friends and even within that group you would see some who may not agree with me on this issue, some very dear friends who don't agree with me on this issue."

What I heard, and then confirmed when I read the transcript, was not the "hey I have plenty of gay friends" platitude, but rather Palin acknowledging the fact that she has many close friends and family members who do not agree with her position as "tolerant of adults in America...choosing relationships that they deem best".  I think she was playing to the rabid anti-gay crowd with that statement.

Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes


How long will it stand?
As soon as Biden was finished talking about same-gender marriage last night, I began to wonder how long it would take the Obama campaign to release a "clarification" of what the Obama campaign's position is on same-gender marriage and the Constutional rights of gay people who wish to marry or are married in locales that allow it.  Basically, Biden said that Obama opposes all parts of DOMA.  He's never said that before.

I'm Confused?
I'm confused about this comment of yours...

Basically, Biden said that Obama opposes all parts of DOMA.  He's never said that before.

This has been discussed by Obama in past debates and below is a copy of text from his website that discusses the differences between him and McCain on this subject.

Obama Supports Complete Repeal of DOMA.
Obama believes we need to fully repeal the
Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation
that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal
rights and benefits currently provided on the
basis of marital status are extended to samesex
couples in civil unions and other legally recognized
relationships.

I'm just wondering if you have missed this information in the past?  It is important for everyone to understand their positions and I would suggest everyone go to their websites to find out their positions on this and other important topics.


[ Parent ]
Wrong
Basically, Biden said that Obama opposes all parts of DOMA.  He's never said that before.

Obama has consistently and repeatedly throughout this campaign demanded a full repeal of DOMA. His LGBT position paper on his website says:

Obama also believes we need
to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal
legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex
couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.

And in fact if you poke around you can find Obama calling for a full repeal of DOMA as far back as his 2004 Senate run:

   For the record, I opposed [the Defense of Marriage Act] in 1996. It should be repealed and I will vote for its repeal on the Senate floor. I will also oppose any proposal to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban gays and lesbians from marrying. This is an effort to demonize people for political advantage, and should be resisted. ...

   When Members of Congress passed DOMA, they were not interested in strengthening family values or protecting civil liberties. They were only interested in perpetuating division and affirming a wedge issue. ... Despite my own feelings about an abhorrent law, the realities of modern politics persist. While the repeal of DOMA is essential, the unfortunate truth is that it is unlikely with Mr. Bush in the White House and Republicans in control of both chambers of Congress.



[ Parent ]
Thanks for elaborating, Pam
This whole exchange is going to cause consternation on both sides, I think.  

It's going to cause problems on the Democratic side because many are going to (inaccurately, in my view) see Biden as selling out.  I see it, though, as Pam does. And I think we can quickly help Dems to see that.

It should wreak havoc on the extreme-conservative side.  The McCain/Palin ticket disagrees with every LGBT stance that the Obama/Biden ticket has taken, with the one exception of the very specific question of federal marriage, which they both say is a man and a woman and decided by the states.  So I think for Palin to state any agreement with the Dems is going to raise hackles.

I think it's intriguing that Gwen Iffel specifically asked about domestic partner benefits that Alaska provides for same sex couples.  Biden understood the question accurately.  Palin jumped to her talking point about marriage, and totally overlooked the original question, thereby ending up with a conclusion that she & McCain agree with Biden & Obama about rights to be granted to couples.  I'm sure McCain advisors were gnashing their teeth.  


Biden gave me the same agita that you claim Palin gave Dobson
so I don't see this as any kind of political victory - in fact my enthusiasm for Obama has dimmed considerably.

I want to point out that what Biden said was more of a lie than what Palin said - they both lied thru their teeth - Palin to avoid sounding too bigoted, and Biden to make sure he took a swipe at gays to PLEASE the bigoted.

1) " there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple"

THere IS a constitutional and legal distinction between being an unmarried couple and a married one - a huge distinction - this is nonsense.

2)" Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it." -

A total flat out lie - if it is "left to faiths" then the UCC could marry gay couples today. He wants to let certain religious sects determine civil law.

I got pissed, and I am not over it, and I have canceled any further "out the vote" assistance


I don't expect everyone to agree
I shared my view, for whatever that's worth. It's not meant to convince anyone out of their corner.

While watching the answers to this question, I tried to view it through the lens of the average voter out there, many of whom simply don't have this issue on their radar (and quite frankly, why should they, given the economy is in the sh*tter?). And that goes for conservative, progressive as well as independent voters.

The framing Joe Biden used last night spoke to the emotional/religious inconsistent views many Americans hold on the issue. He and Obama were not taking a swipe at gays -- to do that he would have had to say committed couples don't deserve any rights whatsoever, or give a lame response like Palin. The tickets are worlds apart on LGBT issues. Nothing about Biden's answer on "one woman/one man" marriage differs from what we've heard all year long, so there's really nothing to dim enthusiasm about, so if you were angry then, it's likely you would still be angry now.

I expected the specific non-news answer about marriage and let that roll over my back -- the real news is the passion with which he spoke about our relationships and the civil equality that should not be denied. He challenged Palin to join him in affirming that, and she was left defensively holding the bag.
 


[ Parent ]
I was angry before
it usually passes, and then Obama or Biden does it again as he did last night.

The truth is that I think Obama plays the gay community the same way the Repubs plays the fundies - he makes friendly noises but I don't believe there is any substance or that he will actually do anything to advance gay rights if he meets any opposition


[ Parent ]
Of course it could have been much worse.
But the really remarkable thing was that was a question to begin with.

And I'm 61.  


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry you don't see the big picture.
Tip, I admire your passion for the issue of how unfairly we are treated, but did you truly expect Biden to speak out in favor of same-sex marriage, even if he/Obama support it (I suspect they probably don't care one way or the other, personally)?

We are in an election where, despite jaw-dropping incompetence by Republican leaders, a war that's killed more Americans than "The Terrorists" did on 9/11/01, and a plummeting economy--despite all of this--it is STILL a fairly close race.

It is all, ALL, about the swing voters, as usual but especially this year. Obama/Biden WILL NOT WIN without turning a couple of "Red" states Blue. Do you truly think that they will accomplish this by speaking out in favor of "Homosexual marriage"? You are as naive as a daisy if you think so. We are so close to victory, but a statement as controversial as that would send the GOP ads into overtime.

Is it a sell-out? YES. Is it in insult to GLBT people? OF COURSE.

But ultimately, in the big picture, is it the right thing to do? DAMN TOOTING. I was actually worried that Biden would NOT explicitly say he was against same-sex marriage, since his initial response made it sound as if he was. I could practically hear Virginia and Colorado falling back into the McCain camp, if that were the case.

Let's worry about GETTING THEM ELECTED first, putting open-minded SCOTUS justices on the Court, and then, THEN hold their feet to the fire.

Biden was correctly playing to the SWING voters in SWING states with his statements, NOT to the Blue folks nor even to the country as a whole. Saying civil unions are the right thing, while still not pissing off the SWING voters by supporting actual marriage, was walking the fine line exactly right, and I can't believe anyone who follows politics doesn't understand that.

We are a LONG way from the day any Presidential candidate can go out on a limb for a despised minority to risk his/her own election numbers. I wish it weren't so, but I live in a very Purple state that might JUST go Blue, and know that "Queer marriage don't play".


[ Parent ]
Well actually, yes...
Tip, I admire your passion for the issue of how unfairly we are treated, but did you truly expect Biden to speak out in favor of same-sex marriage, even if he/Obama support it (I suspect they probably don't care one way or the other, personally)?

Well actually, what I want and what I feel we need, is the same kind of advocacy that we saw previously from a vice president who brokered an extremely unpopular civil rights bill through congress, knowing the kind of political backlash he was going to get.  

Until the Democrats offer that kind of leadership, until they are willing to stand for doing the right thing.  Until they actually take the moral high ground rather than the safe votes for on the safe baby-steps forward, why are we spending our political money and time on them rather than on the kinds of advocacy, lobbying and support that changes minds and save lives?  


[ Parent ]
I admit
Once upon a time I did not understand the importance of marriage as opposed to civil unions, and thank the Spirits a wise co-worker sat me down and explained it clearly.

I wish I could say I was a teenager when that conversation occurred, but it was less than 10 years ago ( and I'm 44 now).

This is my long-winded way of agreeing that Biden's answer could have been much, much worse.

We all have a long way to go -- when it comes to learning and opening our minds.

MsNomir


My moment of clarity
only arrived a few months ago and it was life-altering. Until then, the WHY "SSM versus a civil union isn't acceptable" didn't really connect. But when it did, it shook me to the core.

Many thanks to PHB and the Blenders for being my online equivalent of MsNomir's wise co-worker!

I'm glad you expanded on this moment from the debate, Pam. Maybe what Biden did will act as a foot in the door towards real conversation- I hope so.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."


[ Parent ]
separate is never equal
I wanted to wash Joe Biden's mouth out with soap when I heard his drivel on marriage equality last night.  "People who practice their faiths" are who gave this country slavery and racism, sexism, homophobia, and church-sanctioned child abuse.  Let those people practice their faiths at home and in their houses of worship, not in oppressive laws.

Perhaps it truly is time for a Day Without Queers to remind Joe Biden and Jane Six-Pack the power that we can withhold from this country!


For the average viewer
the take away message was Palin's last comment (even though she mis-repeated the original question.
"Your question to him was whether he supported gay marriage and my answer is the same as his and it is that I do not."

Obama/Biden do not support my equal rights...that's the take away for me....they do support however me and my partner applying for our "hospital visitation license".  I wonder which government department that will fall under?

Once again the Obama/Biden/national Democratic group stated in no uncertain terms that I am a second class citizen (although I should be able to visit my ---- in the hospital).


whoops forgot to add
Once again....missed the chance to speak out against enshrining discrimination against hospital visits into state constitutions.

[ Parent ]
The O/B position on marriage sucks...
...and it is what it is.

But I did appreciate the way Biden used the issue against Palin--whereas in the past we would have been more likely to see nervous wilting on the issue.  The "one man/one woman" claptrap would have been the first thing out of a Democratic mouth a couple of years ago.  Instead, we got "absolutely no distinction under the constitution" right out of the gate--with trademark Biden emphasis and passion.

Democrats apparently think they're on the winning side of this issue now--and that they can use it, as Pam said, to box Republicans in.  Biden put Palin on the spot in front of her base and made her react.  That is significant progress.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


Call it what you want
I find it amusing how people would rather not have a civil union if they can't have it called marriage. That seems to me that people want recognition more than they do the rights that go along with it. If my partner and I are able to have a civil union or whatever they want to call it, and it confers all the rights of traditional marriage, I'll take it. FOR NOW.
Once we have our civil union, we will call it marriage. If someone asks if we are married, we will say yes. If they want to argue, I can do the yes I am, no you aren't thing as long as any fundie can. They can't throw you in jail for calling your civil union a marriage!! Take the rights and call it what you want!!

[ Parent ]
The problem is...
...as the Supreme Court decided in CA, and business advocacy groups noted, Domestic Partnerships or Civil Unions as a separate construct are equal in some respects and unequal in certain arbitrary respects, creating a messy regulatory hodge-podge of decisions that have to be made.  

[ Parent ]
Exactly
If you don't understand why it's a unacceptable compromise, examine any of the articles on this blog via the search engine about New Jersey, where separate but equal has been tested and roundly failed.  

____________________

Donate to Carmen's Place


[ Parent ]
Here;'s my take
http://www.bgkev.com/?p=156

Either way, there's a sugar-coating of a bitter pill feel going on in the current Queer Politics.

Why the laughter? Why is it acceptable that the denial of rights for a group of at minimum 10% of the United States Citizenry makes fodder for humor? Why is it that the two major parties can come together to verbally ensure the majority base of both their parties that they won't rock the boat? Frankly, dearest readers, gay equality in the United States are a joke, and one you MUST learn to laugh with.


Tone and not details: Palin satisfies no one here
The people who have a mild case of "ick....Not Our Kind, Dear" about gays but don't like thinking of themselves as mean aren't likely to go for "tolerance...blah blah....oh, we will allow hospital visitations".

The hard line religious conservatives don't like the word "tolerance" and see every small change as allowing more of the foot in the door.

The rest of us think "well, that's mighty big of you, Sarah" and restrain our urges to hurl at the TV set, even if we haven't been playing the Palin drinking game.

Biden made a strong statement for equality of legal rights for same-gender v. opposite-gender couples at the beginning,and enumerated some important rights (not all) and then began to hedge on "marriage for a man and a woman", using the word "marriage" to mean "rite or status accorded a couple by a religious entity".

That's likely to be seen as the best that can be done, and Biden will satisfy the straights who are indifferent to or support gays.


The don't need to DO anything to prohibit hospital visitation
One thing that irritates me is Palin's assurance that neither she nor McCain would ever do anything to prohibit same-sex partners from hospital visitation. The fact is, the don't NEED to do anything because in most states only LEGAL family members are allowed into Emergency Rooms and the like (and good luck getting information on a patient if you are not legally related). The question should have been, would you do anything to PERMIT such visitations, but, of course, the moderator was asleep at the wheel. Indeed, how did Ifill allow a terribly anti-gay woman to come off looking as egalitarian as Joe Biden?

Even worse, most Americans simply don't realize the extent to which we are discriminated against. They think we have full equal rights already and are just pushing for more "special" rights.


There IS a way to get around the no visitation/no information crap
My partner and I are registered Domestic Partners in our Florida county. If one of us is in a county hospital we have no issues with visitation or information. But I was concerned with non-county hospital policies. My designated Health Care Surrogate has always been my daughter and one day I realized that no hospital or health care facility would ever deny my daughter from visiting, etc. if she wasn't my Health Care Surrogate.

My partner is now my designated Health Care Surrogate and I am hers. It is directed in these documents that facilities provide access at all times as though the primary Health Care Surrogate was a member of immediate family by blood or marriage. It is also directed that access to medical information and records, ability to consent to or withhold treatment, admit/transfer to other facilities, and all that other blah blah blah happy crap is to be respected.

I checked with my attorney and she said this is an excellent way to prevent physicians, hospitals and other health care facilities from denying access and recognition to same sex partners. And the above mentioned are required to follow the directions in a Designation of Health Care Surrogate document.

You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.  


[ Parent ]
be sure to never leave the state,
as other states are not necessarily required to honor the agreements you have written in florida.  this is why palin needed to be asked what positive steps she would take to make hospital visitation (at least) possible for gay couples.

also, be sure to carry copies of those agreements on you at all times.  hospitals can and do ignore the word of gay partners in emergency situations that they are each others h.c. surrogate, etc.  this is such a problem that in washington state, the secretary of state issues cards to domestic partners so that when we are challenged by nurses, police, whoever, we have proof from the state as to our relationship.

it is good that you two are taking these important steps to legally protect your family as best you can.  but don't be fooled into any kind of assurance that in the hour of need they will amount to much.  they may, but then again they may not.

p.s. i'm slated to call my ancient aunt and uncle this weekend to be sure they're on the "no on 2" bandwagon.  they live in "the villages".  i'm hoping they'll be willing to put in a good word for us with their blue-haired neighbors, too.

Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
The Villages
I understand the out of state issue but we rarely leave Florida. We have Broward County DP cards which may not be recognized in many Florida counties. And we do take our paperwork with us.

Lurleen, it's interesting you mentioned where your aunt and uncle live. Last December when we went to visit my sister, who lives about 15 minutes from The Villages, my partner ended up in The Villages Hospital ER. During registration we went thru the "who is your next of kin" and my partner told the clerk I was. Needless to say we went thru the usual sister? cousin? When I told her domestic partner the clerk had this puzzled look on her face. So I explained. She actually listened and said she wished they had a local DP registry. (As she was so receptive I also started talking about Amendment 2.) When she explained the information on the paperwork she kept apologizing that she had to list me as "friend" as they have no option for partner. I must say that even tho The Villages are in Hillbillyville everyone at the hospital treated our relationship with the same respect they had for straight couples.

My partner and I are having our commitment ceremony October 11th near The Villages. We'll be there about 5 days so if you want me to have a "Say No 2" chat with your aunt, uncle and some of their blue haired friend just let me know. ;-)  

You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.  


[ Parent ]
Congratulations!
Congratulations on your upcoming ceremony!  

Sure, do drop in on my aunt & uncle when you're up there.  You can't miss them.  They're the ones who are about 8o and an interesting combination of cranky-sweet. ;D

Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Lurleen
We're excited. As most of our families live scattered throughout Florida we try to combine family events in central Florida. We have a couple family gathering-type special events next week so that's how we picked the date. A few weeks later I realized our ceremony is scheduled for National Coming Out Day.

Your aunt and uncle sound like most of the people who live in The Villages so I'll just talk about Amendment 2 to everyone I meet.....oh, wait. I already do that! I agree with your next reply. We will get there 1 conversation at a time so we need to keep having 1 conversation many, many times a day.

You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.  


[ Parent ]
Oops, I also meant to add
that I appreciated your story about the conversation with the ER person.  That is how we'll get there - one conversation at a time.  There are many kind people out there who have just never had the occasion to think about our situation before.  

Lurleen on Twitter

[ Parent ]
no mention of Social Security benefits?
I listened to the carefully chosen list of items that both Biden and Palin ran off on neither of them mentioned that they were for social security benefits for same-sex couples. What's up with that?  I find the whole thing so dang depressing!


Been there - Done that

Raven


i'm pretty sure
that obama & biden are for ss benefits, since they want to repeal doma.  it is doma that prevents us from being recognized as spouses, and getting ss benefits.

Lurleen on Twitter

[ Parent ]
Yep
What Lurleen said...she beat me to it.

Although, as Obama has pointed out, they would also have to...

enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to samesex
couples in civil unions and other legally recognized relationships

Just getting rid of DOMA would not do that, but it is the first (and required) step.


[ Parent ]
Pam you are spot on!
I had the same reaction and needed to think a bit on the exchange.

Joe Biden took advantage of the forum of a debate and the great fortune of the way in which Gwen framed the question.

Joe was unequivocal about relationship equality under the law and citing the constitution actually calls for such equality and that it was only fair.

The strength of the position tied to the constitution only set up Palin for the fall. Obama and Biden nor any GLBT person has ever said or advocated that any faith or religion should be forced to marry anyone.

Biden reinforced that position when he said, "That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it."

Remember, Palin came into the debate looking like a dolt. She came into the debate needing to sound intelligent.

Biden painted Plain into a very tight corner.

Palin was left publicly agreeing with Biden that all couples gay or straight will have the same legal constitutional protections under and Obama/Biden Administration, no matter what it is called.

If all relationships are equal in all aspects under the law that is equality. The law is the driving and controlling factor to equality, not faith or religion.

Religious marriage is not equal. Roman catholics do not recognize "civil marriages" nor do they recognize "civil divorces". Catholic marriages can only be consecrated by the catholic church. Take it a step further, Roman Catholics practice religious discrimination, otherwise banned by the constitution under other circumstances, as both parties to the marriage must be catholic. Jewish marriages are not recognized by the catholic church.

What Biden did last night was brilliant!

Palin and Biden agreed, in front of millions, that gay couples should be protected under the constitutional and laws of the land equally as compared to heterosexual couples. And that the definition of marriage is best left up to individual faiths and religions.

That's the message we need to be spreading far and wide to every LGBT voter far and wide.

Make no mistake, Obama and Biden are sincere in that position and have been consistent and honest.

Palin may have agreed and done so unknowingly, but make no mistake Dobson, McCain, and the rest of the social conservatives took a bath on gay marriage last night.



The way I read this
It may be wishful thinking, but taking into account Obama's stance throughout this campaign, I think he and Biden are in favor of full marriage equality. Remember what Hillary said, and Obama agreed with, at the LOGO forum? It was something like, "we have to do what we can at the present time." I interpreted that as ,"we believe in full equality, but we can't achieve it overnight."

If Obama really thinks marriage should be strictly between a man and a woman, why did he declare his opposition to Prop. H8? And on that topic, does anyone remember his exact wording all the times he's stated his definition of marriage? Did he say "marriage is between a man and a woman?" Has he ever said "marriage should be between a man and a woman?" I don't recall him ever using the latter. It's a fine but important distinction, because, technically, under federal law, marriage is between a man and a woman and stating this fact doesn't necessarily indicate an opinion on the matter. Remember, this guy's a lawyer.

Biden said, "We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits..."

Whether it was a slip of the tongue or intentional, it tells me that Biden personally views a committed same-sex couple as married.

I think Obama and Biden are 100% on our side. They can't be as straightforward about it as we'd like, because most Americans still don't support marriage. Let's just get them elected. We can judge them later by their actions.

Tax the Christian Taliban!


As expected Antigay Prop 8 supporters use Biden/Palin debate to support Prop 8

California Briefing
October 5, 2008

While pundits argue whether Joe Biden or Sarah Palin won the vice presidential debate, backers of California's initiative to ban same-sex marriage are confident they came out on top.

Biden and Palin both said they believe marriage should be between one man and one woman. They each also said they believe there should be no discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Proponents of Proposition 8, which would ban same-sex marriage, sent out a campaign e-mail Saturday quoting Biden's and Palin's stands on same-sex marriage and posted snippets of the debate on their YouTube site.

"Do you support gay marriage?" moderator Gwen Ifill asked. "No," Biden answered. "Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths."

The e-mail then quoted Palin as saying: "My answer is the same as his and it is that I do not."

Frank Schubert, managing the Yes-on-8 campaign, said Saturday that the quotes demonstrate that "people of both parties, leading Democrats and leading Republicans, all agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman."

What the Yes-on-8 campaign didn't mention in its e-mail is that both Obama and Biden oppose Proposition 8.

Ben LaBolt, spokesman for the Obama-Biden ticket, said Obama opposes Proposition 8 and "similar discriminatory constitutional amendments that could roll back the civil rights he and Sen. Biden strongly believe should be afforded to all Americans."



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