Tim Hardaway: 'I hate gay people'

Apologies are beside the point

What is this American obsession with apologies?  What could he possibly say that would palliate his hate-filled comments?  Expecting anything of him is hypocritical.  We know where he stands, we know any apology would be half-hearted (or half-harded).  The only thing to expect is that the league do what it did.  These public apologies from individual bigots (like Gibson) are all about PR and mean nothing, they change nothing.  What we need is other, straight players to say, "If I knew there was a homophobic bigot on my team, I'd keep my distance, because that's not right."  That would mean something, that would have an impact, that would change lives and perceptions.  All this does is show that with enough bad PR, sooner or later anyone will pretend to be sorry.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 07:53:00 AM CST

Lev, I agree

I am so sick of apologies when they are not truly intended.  To me, an apology indicates you understand you did something wrong, or that your words or actions had a negative impact on another person that you did not intend.  Being forced to apologize, when you still hold hatred in your heart, matters little.  Apology not accepted.

If anything, I am glad he was so candid.  I am sick of bigots hiding behind platitudes about protecting the "family" or "traditional values."  He is honest.  I hope he can get a nice big fat endorsement deal with the Christian Coalition so he can spread that honesty around.  It would be refreshing for a change.

---

by: JoshWatermanMN @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:10:21 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sad

I hate gays....I hate born agains....I hate muslims...I hate fat people....Its all hurtful words.  Everyone trying to convince everyone they are above another.

Its sounds so easy but I wonder why people can't just get along and not seek to hurt others with their words.  Our country and the people who live here have so much wealth and reasons to celebrate.  We are so lucky and blessed.  The worst though is those who disrespect others and then use god/jesus names to justify their rants and further make a living doing it.  They are the laziest and lowest of all and can be equated to a cockroach.  They make their living by feeding others bigotry.

---

by: lynndeangelo @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 18:32:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And so eloquent too!

Wow...I'm just awestruck at his level of eloquence.  He sounds so intelligent.  It is evident he has thought long and deep (no pun intended) on his views.

/snark off/

What an ASSHOLE!

---

by: callie @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 08:47:23 AM CST

Yeah...

...sometimes this sh*t makes me angry, and sometimes it just makes me laugh.

This one makes me laugh.  What a pathetic little man.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:00:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

He's A Former Professional Basketball Player

Hardly a LITTLE man. Definitely pathetic though.

---

by: Alan down in Florida @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:27:04 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Whenever someone used to brag about physical size,

my dad used to say, "Damn.  I had no idea you could pile shit that high!"

Apropos of the current situation, I say.

---

by: JoshWatermanMN @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:32:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

By the way

Don't you love his name?  Hardaway!?

You could use it in a song, à la the Beatles:

"Hey, you've got to hide your hard away. . . ."

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 08:49:48 AM CST

"Hey, you've got to hide your hard away. . . ."

Preferably behind a Chemistry textbook and a spiral bound notebook, if I remember my high school days correctly.

---

by: JoshWatermanMN @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:34:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Karma

is going to get him good. I really shouldn't enjoy watching his life spiral downward but he brought it on himself.

---

by: Pta @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 08:56:47 AM CST

A guy I know...

whom I went to college with.  I don't talk to him much anymore, had this on his away message:

GET THE FUCK OFF TIM HARDAWAY,,,AND IF UR GAY U SHOUSDL FN DIE!!! U FN HOMOS!!!!!! (CEPT GIRL WHO GAVE ME MY TAT)M  OTHETR THAT THAN THAT FUCK GAY FAGS AND GET OFF TIM HARDAWAY!!!!!!!!!!

I deleted him from the buddy list. 

You know what pisses me off more than anything?  The Eastern Seaboard types are over there yucking it up with this halfwit because he's being so 'honest'. 

What the fuck?  Since when is the Nat Media nice to hate mongers in sports when they're 'honest'? 

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:01:16 AM CST

I like honesty

I hope it is contagious.  I hope these idiots start spouting off whatever they think.  Then we can actually start dealing with them because they won't be hiding behind fake concern any more.

---

by: JoshWatermanMN @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:35:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Today Show

It was funny to watch them cover this on the today show.  After they played it Ann couldn't stop laughing.  She apologized for lauging saying that those comments "were just too far over the line."  No one said anything nice about him.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

---

by: Daimeon @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:02:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sad

Isn't it always sad to see a member of a historically oppressed minorty express hatred for another H.O.M.?  I don't expect much from sprots figrues, so insight and a sense of tragic irony would be too much to hope for.  But a little sensitivity?  A modicum?  An iota?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:01:17 AM CST

You're on target, Lev

I've never understood it either.  No matter how 'dem' it seems the black community is, I do see a great deal of black homophobia.  I'm looking around for SiC to tell me it's about how black men construct masculinity.  If you've never gotten one of her explanations before your first cup of joe in the morning....you're just missing out on some of the finer things in life. 

The sports locker room is one of the last bastions of racism, sexism,  and queer hating. 

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:10:14 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sad indeed

"Isn't it always sad to see a member of a historically oppressed minorty express hatred for another H.O.M.?  I don't expect much from sprots figrues, so insight and a sense of tragic irony would be too much to hope for.  But a little sensitivity?  A modicum?  An iota?"

I couldn't agree more. I'm a black gay guy myself and I ask myself that question all the time. It seems when you're dealing with someone who's black and clearly homophobic, they like to play the "my oppression was greater than yours" game. This is just such a disgusting display of bigotry it took me by surprise. Especially the comment about having a gay family member. That is awful.

---

by: BrianAgenda @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 13:11:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actual ESPNer quotes

  makanac34 (2/15/2007 at 7:51 AM) Report

  I would say that I hate gay people. It is totally abnormal for a man to sleep with another man. The Bible forbid this action (it said it is an abomination, remember two great cities were destroyed because of homosexual activities). I would have to agree with Tim Hardaway, he is not just honest but he knows that we can't accept such rootless behaviour in our society. On the other hand, I would have to disagree with him taking back his comments. A man should stand by his worlds and have no fear what the world would think of him. To the NBA Commissioner Mr. Stern becareful you are walking on dangerous grounds. Homosexual men and women do not belong to a normal society. I WOULD NEVER SIT IN THE SAME ROOM WITH GAYS ONCE I KNOW.

  originata (2/15/2007 at 8:01 AM) Report

  I sure wish people would stop comparing the struggles of Black people to gays. Gay people are ostracized but it doesn't compare whatsoever to what Black people have endured in America. Black people are not monolithic, we have differing beliefs and values just like everyone else regardless if they upset someone else or not. So what Tim Hardaway made his comments. At least he is honest. It's better to know how someone thinks, unless we're so PC now that we are scared of truth.

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:17:45 AM CST

Homophobes in sports? Who woulda thunk it!

In my experience, jocks and their admirers seem to attract the worst homophobes and bullies.  It isn't a surprise: competitive sports emphasize the dominion of the "strong" over the "weak."  It is a game of control, of authority; it is no surprise that authortarians would be more attracted to the grid iron or the wrestling mat or the basketball court over other pursuits such as, say, the arts, which tend to be more accepting of divergence and less emphasized on competititon (although the arts ARE competitive, if only in an economic fashion).

That's not to say there aren't good people in athletics.  GLBT folk have long been part of sports, more than anyone can ever know probably.  It is sort of a final frontier for us; once we are accepted there without it being a major banner issue on ESPN, we will know we have "arrived."

---

by: JoshWatermanMN @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:31:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Good luck.

I'm an optimist when it comes to gay rights and the end to queer-bigotry in America.  I'm a lot more optimistic than a lot of folks I know. 

But the locker room will always be the locker room. 

 

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:07:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Elaine Donnely

Would love to hear that last comment.  Other than "it's the law" that's the same rhetoric her side uses to keep DADT in place.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

---

by: Daimeon @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:05:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

?

Just to get this clear:

Is your implication that I am either advocating or supporting DADT by saying that the locker room will always be a place for homophobia?

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:28:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not at all!

Dan, I hardly would think that or imply it.  I'm merely stating what the other side uses as reasons to keep DADT alive is exactly what you said.  It in no way implies that is what you feel.

I guess there was a misunderstanding between us.  To me when I hear the rhetoric that homophobia will always be in place in the locker room then I get the images of people beating on others because of their real or percieved orientation.

I think that homophobia should have no place to be regardless of the fact that people change in the same place where someone could be physically attractive to another.  If one is secure enough in their own sexuality and or masculinity then it shouldn't even be a second thought. 

Dan, through your previous posts and comments I know you don't advocate or support DADT any more than any other regular Blender.  I was just making a comparison of the phrase choice and how I interpreted it.  Sorry for any confusion.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

---

by: Daimeon @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 17:10:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I was just making sure.

Sometimes a one liner of doom has the problem where you're not quite sure what the other person is saying.  I just wanted to clear that up. 

I think there's a pretty big difference between the locker room and the military in terms of how homophobia comes to be.  While it's similar, I think it mostly comes down to the fact that the locker room is based on organic leadership - not leadership assigned by rank. That being the case, every fellow in the locker room is competing for that leadership role.  And they can't seem soft on the LGBT folks in doing so.

That's not excusing it of course, it's just commenting on the differences.  I think the military will be cured of it's problem long before the locker room will.

---

by: dan l @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 08:12:18 AM CST

[ Parent ]

METHINKS THE LADIES DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH

"In my experience, jocks and their admirers seem to attract the worst homophobes and bullies."

The athletes all hypermacho to cover up their own inadequacies and deflect suspicious from themselves and their admirers need to be homophobic rather than have someone question their adulation of a member of their own sex.

Men who are comfortable in their own sexuality generally do not have trouble with people whose sexuality is different.

---

by: Alan down in Florida @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:32:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Occasionally, I get it.

Once in a while I'll be chatting politics with somebody and mention that I'm an advocate for SSM.  Once in a great while, I'll get "Oh.  You must be a fag".

And before anybody trips over themself "Well Dan, you're a republican, what do you expect" note that I do travel in mostly highly dem circles.  I'm not going to make this partisan.  You don't either. 

I can understand how my fellow advocates may find this one a little bit difficult to negotiate, all things considered.  It's difficult to sit through that one.  It was for me, at first. 

But then I remember that I simply don't give a fuck. 

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:00:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That's why I like you, Dan

Even though I do slag off Republicans (I admit, it is a bad thing to rip into an entire group), it is important to hear what he other side has to say.  Your posts are always so reasonable and well thought out, it is easy to put aside any "bad feels" I associate with the right and listen to the arguments.  I wish we had more like you on both sides, it would solve many problems.

---

by: JoshWatermanMN @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:25:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ya kidding?

If there's more than one of me in the room, the only result that I forsee is a civil war or a love connection.

I kid. 

Thanks brother.

---

by: dan l @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 13:42:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Off to rehab

I guess this ass will be the newest resident of a rehab facility.  Maybe he can share a room with Michael Richards and Mark Foley.

Personally, I hate basketball players.  I wouldn't spend any time with one if I knew one were in the room.  They seem really stupid.  All of them. 

---

by: Patrick @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:55:50 AM CST

Or, more appropriately

Isaiah Washington

---

by: Alan down in Florida @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:33:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

the locker room...

The predictability of the "OMG gays in teh Locker Room" responses any time a professional/ex-professional athlete comes out or is rumored to be gay is tiring. It happened when Piazza had his "I'm straight" press conference, it happened when Swoopes came out, and it's happening again with Amaechi.

Masochistic fool that I am, I still wade into the ESPN message boards to see the reaction, and like clockwork, after about five posts lauding the jock for being courageous and honest, the deluge begins. The arguments always include not wanting to shower with a gay guy, deeeeeep concern for the well-being of the gay guy when he sproings the inevitable boner spurred by the presence of hot naked straight guys, and, best of all, whining that a straight man would never be allowed to shower with straight women, so why should the holy pro locker room be subject to different rules?

I have played team sports at the high school, club, and collegiate level, and still work out regularly, and when I hit the locker room I'm interested in getting cleaned up, getting dressed, and going on with my day. Maybe what Hardaway and the other shower-fixated 'phobes don't understand is that I see a nekkid woman every morning when I step out of the shower and look in the mirror, so when I get in the locker room it isn't unusual, exotic, titillating, anything.

What these chuckleheads fail to comprehend is that gay guys have been practicing, playing, and showering alongside them their entire careers, beginning in high school. And somehow they managed to just do their jobs, work hard, play the games, and not proposition the straight guys while they were at it. It's all about professionalism and respect for your teammates--which the gay athletes are surely exhibiting far more graciously than their teammates, who are slamming them a priori.

---

by: boltgirl @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 09:56:43 AM CST

I don't get it

Why do all these "hetero-ozzing" mancho types play with each others ass's on the football field and feel each other up on the base ball diamond?

---

by: HDBiker @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:10:43 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Don't know

But probably that's part of the reason they have to maintain such a strict boundary between the "right" kind of manlove which they feel and the horrifying "wrong" kind.  And insist, insist, insist that the "wrong" kind is something completely alien, out there, in a different category which couldn't possibly have anything to do with them, rather than part of the spectrum of human emotions.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 13:57:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Brava ...

Awesomely said hon ... as an athlete myself too (swimming, skiing growing up and now cycling in adulthood) I am sooo sick of this shit ... I mean, after a good workout the last thing that should be on your mind is checking out other women, you're too focused, too exhausted, for that ... the first thought in my brain is that I wanna get out and do the training all over again, I feel so charged.

But that's beside the point ... checking out other people in the safe space such as a locker room is inappropriate to put it mildly, and somehow over the centuries we have managed to go without doing it ... funnily enough.

I always think of that scene in 'Starship Troopers' where all the new recruits were showering together naked, male AND female, and it simply was unremarkable, it was showering and cleaning, and wasn't considered sexual in any way at all.

Anyone that protests otherwise has some sexuality issues themselves, even if it is merely insecurity over such.

---

by: Sarah in Chicago @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:11:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sexuality issues

I couldn't help but think the ol' "protest too much" mantra.  Anyone who gets themselves that worked up over someone else's sexuality is just projecting.  I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was doing a little DL and of course being down-low doesn't mean you're a faggot (at least to some).

---

by: callie @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:21:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What is it about men?

It always seem that the bottom line is the locker room.  Women, on the other hand, don't seem to have that problem.  There are some who are shy around everyone but you never see or hear of anyone worrying if the woman across the way is a lesbian or not.  You just change, shower, whatever, and leave.  The world wouldn't end if you saw me naked and appreciated what you saw (although I would question your taste in women, I do need to go and work out!) in a sexual way. 
As for Hardaway, it's a good thing that he can play basketball and that it pays as well as it does because otherwise considering how smart he seems to be, he would be cleaning the locker room toilets. 
And I don't want to see him naked either!

My America includes LGBT families.

---

by: Mena @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 22:29:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

houston, tim has a problem.....................

i think tim is a queer himself which is why he is so outraged by john's revelation. i think he has sexuality issues. if he was secure about his sexuality, he wouldn't have made the comment.....


africanlotus

---

by: africanlotus @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:29:03 AM CST

Re: Hardaway

Some people have pathological hate inside them and they vent it towards the safest target.

Straight guys who are secure about their masculinity are NOT homophobic.

These same homophobes love seeing two women sucking on each other. But when it comes to two gay men - there is nothing in it for them.

These homophobes are evil, hateful, insecure, and hypocritical.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation that a person is born with. Is that too complicated for these morons to understand?

---

by: G. @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:46:30 AM CST

It's not entirely their fault.....

These homophobes have been brainwashed since they were little kids. It's an abuse they don't realize they have suffered in their childhood. Unfortunately, many of these can't undo the harm that was instilled into them.

---

by: Pta @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 10:52:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

confusing physical problems with gender?

I sometimes wonder if men like Hardaway actually have problems with impotence.  Impotence can have physical causes that can be treated.  If a guy is impotent due to a phsical cause, but doesn;t realize that that is the reason, and is thug-headed enought to define manhood as the ability to ejaculate, he'll start "proving" his manhood in the only other ways his idiot brain knows how - putting down women or attacking gays (which he's now afraid maybe he is because he can't get off with his girlfriend anymore). 

This is all untrained, wild speculation on my part.  But hey, it makes as much sense as Hardaway-type rantings.  I hope the guy goes to see a doctor.

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:36:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Insecure? Sure - But not Necessarily about Sexuality

Although it is easy to play the closet-case card with people like Hardaway, and there is some evidence that many men who are most homophobic have at least some homosexual urges, there is no way to know if this is true in any one case. Certainly, though, comments like Hardaway's show a deep insecurity with his own masculinity, which as we know in this culture is the most important thing for a guy. The truth is, though, that what our culture prizes as "masculing" is really "macho-ness," and for most guys it is at least partly an act. These guys who are homophobic, or who lash out whenever anyone challenges their masculinity in any way, are simply scared the truth will come out - that they aren't really that "manly."

In my experience, the straight guys who are most comfortable with gay men are also the most comfortable with their own sense of true masculinity - inner strength, being responsible, following through on promises.

---

by: CPT_Doom @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:32:13 AM CST

Oops ...

sorry hon, I should have been more explicit that when I was talking about sexuality, I was including masculinity as well .. my bad.

---

by: Sarah in Chicago @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:44:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I agree that the closet-case card might be overplayed

I'm not sure we're contributing anything constructive with the automatic assumption that the loudest anti-gay howlers are gay themselves. Granted, it seems to frequently shake out that way, but it might be more instructive to respond to guys like Hardaway in terms of overall societal framings of sexuality... which is damn hard to do in one or two sentences, and even harder to counteract.

When I hear a male athlete spouting off about hating gays, I usually figure his biggest fear is being labeled gay himself if he admits to no discomfort around gays. You know, the old "if you don't hate fags you must be one yourself" thing. And I'd venture that the fear comes from a model of male sexuality that is based on a sense of entitlement and power inequality. If a big component of your manhood involves getting what you want, no matter what the other person in the equation thinks, it must be pretty damn terrifying to project that onto the gay guy next to you in the locker room and imagine yourself to be his unwilling target--in short, to imagine being objectified like you objectify women. It's why the man-in-a-women's-shower meme is so prevalent (and instructive).

---

by: boltgirl @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:48:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Tim Hardaway's honesty is very useful

It furthers dialogue, uncluttered by post-hoc rationalizations because of what the Bible says, what Jesus Christ said (oh, wait, he didn't say a single thing about homosexuality), how the state has an interest in promoting procreation blah blah blah.  Tim Hardaway can remind the world that this kind of stuff is, at its core, about hate, and emotion.  I would much prefer candid, raw words from Tim Hardaway over Peter LaBarbera's baroque act-outs, or Mitt Romney's calculated pseudopiety.

Tim Hardaway's endorsement career is over, as it should be.  His "apology," like Mel Gibson's, is completely about his career.  I'd put the odds that he had a sudden revelation that he doesn't really hate gay people at 0%.  Or that Mel Gibson has only had anti-semitic thoughts when drunk at 0%.

I agree, apology not accepted.

---

by: KC @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 11:41:30 AM CST

Whatever. When I pay attention to what a tall, skinny boi who can shoot hoops to sell merchandise has to say about anything...

...I'll be dead.

Regarding Wilt Chamberlain, I haven't read his biography (I have better things to do), but I have read commentaries about his biography.  Most of them point to the fact that he claimed to have had sex with "X" number of women (not a large number for some of us gay guys, but impressive nonetheless).  The important thing is what I saw in only one commentary: that he regretted that, despite the fact that he had claimed to have had sex with "X" number of women, he never found love.  It is that last that is truly sad.

In other words, if that commentary is accurate, the claim was not a claim to victory, but a claim to tragedy.

---

by: raj @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:53:04 PM CST

Commentary on SI.com

Here is an excellent commentary about the Hardaway situation that calls it like it is - unvarnished:

http://sportsillustr...

---

by: SuburbanHomo @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 18:20:36 PM CST

great link!

"moron" is right.

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 18:49:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, duh....

...how much intelligence does it take to throw a ball through a hoop when you're about as tall as the hoop?

---

by: raj @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 01:19:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

questions

Why does our culture worship overgrown idiots running around putting balls into hoops?  Why do they permit them to speak?  Why does anyone care?

---

by: nils @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 20:26:34 PM CST

answers

because many others in our culture likewise like to run around, putting balls in hoops.  or at least, dreaming that they could.  i find basketball boring, but i have observed many partaking in this activity voluntarily.  shocking, i know!

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 20:56:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Woody Allen line

"What is so fascinating about sitting around watching a bunch of pituitary cases stuff a ball through a hoop?"

---

by: txrad @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 08:51:16 AM CST

[ Parent ]

MFPOS

=motherf*cking piece of sh*t.

And that's not just hyperbole.

---

by: Sean in Dallas @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 23:24:06 PM CST

Penn State

When I first read that quote, I thought Rene Portland had said it.

---

by: Wesley Lake @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 at 14:12:20 PM CST