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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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Study: decline in cross-cultural and interracial marriages

by: Pam Spaulding

Tue Feb 20, 2007 at 14:00:00 PM EST


Here's interesting information based on the 2000 census and research by Zhenchao Qian of Ohio State University and Daniel Lichter or Cornell University. The idea that inter-marriage is cyclical and generational hadn't occurred to me, but it makes sense. (USA Today):
The USA's growing diversity is cooling the melting pot in at least one way: marriage across racial and ethnic lines...The sheer number of immigrants who arrived last decade has made it more likely for them to marry among themselves, according to findings published this month in American Sociological Review.

...In contrast with the decline in intermarriages among whites and Asians and Hispanics, the rate of marriages between blacks and whites rose significantly from 1990 to 2000, although it continues to lag far behind those of other minorities.

The arrival of more than 11 million immigrants in the 1990s created a larger marriage pool for Hispanics and Asians, including those born here. Immigrants who were younger than 20 when they arrived and U.S.-born Hispanics and Asians - mostly the less educated - were more likely to marry among themselves in 2000 than in 1990.

...If history repeats itself, the children of immigrants will be better educated, earn more and live and work in more diverse areas than their parents. That could lead to more marriages outside their groups, Qian says.

This reminds me of an earlier post on dating outside one's race in the gay community. A snippet:
The perspective on how people articulate a preference is quite telling about racist thinking. For instance, one gay individual wrote [on a gay message board]:
I personally am not racist but I don't date black people. Nothing against black people, I'm just not attracted to them. The same reason I don't date woman. I'm not attracted to them.
The person tosses up the caveat that they aren't racist because they "have black friends." Given the range of what "black" looks like, how can this person make a blanket statement about all black people when it comes to dating? Is it a matter of perceived physical features (many blacks who can pass for some other ethnicity), a perceived cultural difference ("all blacks are poor or into thug culture"), etc. There's not a whole lot of self-examination going on in the statement.
There's an earnest list on About.com by Kathy Belge, How To Fight Racism in the LGBT Community, that provides concrete ways to address issues personally and publicly to deal with it. I find the list helpful in some ways:
Don't Assume. Do you assume that Blacks or Latinas are more homophobic than White people? That all black lesbians like Hip-Hop or that Asians are good at math. Stereotypes hurt everyone. Examine what your prejudices are.
Some of the more ambitious suggestions there are beyond the comfort level of many people with busy lives, such as "Join or start an organization dealing with racism or human rights," or "Plan a multi-cultural LGBT film festival, concert or community dialogue."

Those are admirable efforts, but there are things people can do on a much smaller scale that are meaningful. More after the jump.

Pam Spaulding :: Study: decline in cross-cultural and interracial marriages
In the Tips section:

  1. Keep an open mind. You might learn something.
  2. Everyone is different. What I say here may not apply to every situation.
  3. Know that racism is part of our culture. Don't be ashamed if you mess up. Everyone makes mistakes. That's how we learn.

Number 3 is the biggest hurdle when discussing and addressing race, and I've said that many times before on this blog. It's a result of people feeling insecure about having open conversations, asking what might be "stupid" questions, and worrying about whether a defensive reaction will occur.

Generally speaking, we can't get very far if people cannot even admit that racism is still part of our culture, and that one can be racist without putting a hood on and burning a cross. Look at Michael Richards. One of the striking things about his unhinged apology on Letterman was that he felt compelled to say he wasn't racist.

"I'm not a racist. That's what's so insane about this," Richards said, his tone becoming angry and frustrated as he defended himself.
This after saying this:
"Shut up! Fifty years ago we'd have you upside down with a f------ fork up your a--...Throw his ass out. He's a nigger! He's a nigger! He's a nigger! A nigger, look, there's a nigger!"
Those comments obviously indicate that Richards either must have been possessed by a racist demon or he was just "playing one" onstage that night, right?

The real problem is that Richards was more concerned about being labeled racist because contemporary society has deemed that label the sign of a fringe element, a social pariah.

Had he been more self-reflective he might have something more sane, such as "I realize that I am a product of a culture steeped in a toxic history regarding race, and my outburst -- and the response to it -- is a teachable moment. It's important to think about how we feel about race and how our internal views about race play out in our daily lives. I intend to do so, because there was no excuse for what I said on stage."

Instead, his advisers felt it was necessary for him to ring up Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson (surely these guys must represent all black people -- argh, this is so tired) to beg for mercy. That isn't productive.

***

One suggestion that I'd add to the About.com list of remedies and ways to combat racism is a difficult one for many people, and one I believe is the most effective way to bridge the gap -- get to know, as a close friend -- someone of a different race or culture. Not a work colleague or a neighbor you share casual conversations with, but to push past your comfort zone -- make friends you can be close enough to that you can ask and be asked those direct questions about race in an environment of trust.

The laws may have deemed segregation illegal, but in many ways the social self-segregation continues because few are confident enough to challenge human nature and step outside of their comfort zones. In this respect, the same can be said about dealing with homophobia -- one on one exposure at a personal level to "difference" allows open and productive conversations that educate.

The big difference with dealing with homophobia, of course, is the fact the laws have not caught up to deem institutionalized anti-gay discrimination unacceptable at a federal level. In this case, the law is often fragmented along red state/blue state lines, and the cultural comfort gap in discussing homophobia can be wide. Gays living in progressive metropolitan areas often forget that their brothers and sisters in flyover country aren't always able to live their lives without fear of being persecuted or fired for being gay, let alone being the target of homophobic attacks and social ostracism. Out gays and allies who are willing to educate themselves on equality issues are sorely needed in areas where conversations and building of bridges need to take place.

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GLBT bigotry and ignorance
It's too easy for us to believe that because we've been oppressed historically, and either individually or as a group, we ourselves are free of prejudice of all kinds.

When I came out and got more involved in the gay community, I was shocked to hear racist jokes, and as a Jew, I was also appalled to find anti-semitism too.  I expected better, but why?  GLBT people are a product of this culture, and being oppressed doesn't necessarily make you more open, more questioning, more thoughtful.

Part of it comes down to ignorance.  The majority tends not to know as much about the minoirty as the reverse.  Straights don't know much about gays, Christians don't know much about Jews, and since most gay people I've met are Christian, their lack of understanding shouldn't have surprised me.

I'm really tired, as a gay jew, of having gay Christians in revolt against their faith beat me over the head with "The Bible says this and that."  Hey, we Jews were developing beyond those texts even when they were redacted, and certainly by the year 70 C.E. we were becoming a very different religion  and religious culture.  Don't blame me or today's Jews for what Christians have made out of our faith texts, and please drop this tired old God of Hate/God of Love distinction christianity draws between Judaism and Christianity.  It's shallow, inaccurate and intrinsically hate-filled.  Christianity hijacked our books, translated them to mean what they want them to mean, and for centuries has spread a very distorted idea of what they mean, but also kept alive this fiction that that's what Judaism is, that alone, what was written 2500 years ago.  Hey, we moved on, Christians should, too.  :-)

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


Christians also stole.....
the majority of holidays from the pagans. Those thieves!!!

[ Parent ]
This Lantsman Agrees Completely With Lev
Although I disagree with the premise in the original post that I am evidencing some sort of prejudice when I say I am not attracted physically by black men. I am also not attracted to men with bushy eyebrows or long hair. It's not racism, it's more correctly described as a form of fetishism.

[ Parent ]
The thing is...
...that in the US, at least, "black" encompasses everyone from Wesley Snipes to Barack Obama and Tiger Woods. I'm a black woman, and while Pam and I seem to be roughly the same height and shape, and we both wear glasses, we don't really look alike. Saying "I'm not attracted physically to black men" implies either that we all look alike, or that you're not attracted to people who identify as black. Either way, it does sound racist to me, because you're ruling out the possibility of being attracted to someone solely because of their racial label.

[ Parent ]
I second what Darkrose wrote.
Alan, I think we once bumped brains over the notion that all white people are racist due to being simmered in a racist culture.  I believe this.  I think you denied it.  If I'm wrong about this, please correct me.  But if I'm remembering well, then a broad assertion that black folks, in all their forms, don't attract you could suggest that you should reconsider the inevitability of racism.

[ Parent ]
Conversely
it may also arise from the fact that the few gay black men I have met in my life at bars and such have all been either drag queens or effeminate which are things that do not attract me physically although I can and often do enjoy their company.

But I still disagree with the racist label. I grew up in black neighborhoods in NYC, my oldest, dearest friend is a black woman.

I think you're all intellectualizing this way too much. Our attractions come from deep within our limbic system, our lizard brains as it were. They are visceral, not intellectual.

I don't have to think about it to know what pushes my buttons when I see it. Much like most men, straight or gay, I respond most to visual stimuli and am to a degree shallow in my physical attraction. And as I get older I find I get shallower and shallower. Perhaps it is because of my formative years but my preference is light-skinned, tall, chubby guys (though as I said before I do have a thing for redheads and freckles). Sue me.

I do not doubt that there are many black men who, if I took the time to get to know them, would turn out to be better people than the majority of the men I have dated. But we men are hard-wired to think with our dicks and hearts not with our intellect.

Holly (even though I have never seen you) you would not excite me physically. I am simply not attracted to women in that manner. Does this mean I am a misogynist as well?


[ Parent ]
either drag queens or effeminate which are things that do not attract me physically
Next thing I know you're going to accuse me of being homophobic too.

[ Parent ]
Instinct and culture
I think you're all intellectualizing this way too much. Our attractions come from deep within our limbic system, our lizard brains as it were. They are visceral, not intellectual.

Yes, and no. There is a cultural component as well. There are very definite standards of beauty in American culture, the ones that make little black girls wonder why they can't have blonde, straight hair and blue eyes like the people on TV. I always wonder when people tell me they "don't find black people attractive" how much of that is because they've heard so many messages saying that dark skin, full lips, and curly hair are not attractive, unless they come from a tanning bed, collagen injections, and a perm.


[ Parent ]
As you say, "Yes and no."
I won't argue that there is some kind of cultural rationale but I think it's more of a what's socially acceptable/beneficial nature than true attraction.

As for the little black girls - I agree that is part of the oppression of the majority by restricting the images of the media to what the social trend makers think is marketable to their core demographics.


[ Parent ]
you're ruling out the possibility of being attracted to someone solely because of their racial label.
Darkrose I am no kid first going into the world to taste the different flavors of men. I am 53 and, as no prize myself, have been out with many men others would not have given a second look. By now I have sorted out what attracts me and what doesn't. It has nothing to do with any kind of label and does not imply in any way that you all look alike, any more than white boys all look alike.

One of the basic differences between men and women is the intellectual component of attraction that women show and men have to grow beyond their boyhood to develop. Maybe 2 decades in the closet have delayed my sexual adulthood but my penis is still my divining rod when it comes to attraction and it has a mind of its own, and experience has taught me who will make it stand up and salute. I honestly don't know if women have an equivalent physical response.


[ Parent ]
So, let me ask:
How dark is "too dark"?

does not imply in any way that you all look alike, any more than white boys all look alike.

It sure sounds like it does from this end, because you're taking one characteristic that varies widely and using it as the measuring rod for a huge group of people.

I'm sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to me. If I said, "I don't find white people attractive," well, that means I'm saying that no one from Nicole Kidman to Angelina Jolie, is attractive. Having preferences is one thing. But the idea that no one in a group of people who are all shades from almost-white to blue-black could ever be considered attractive? I just don't get it.


[ Parent ]
We'll just have to agree to disagree
inasmuch as I have been honest in expressing my desires and you still don't, by your own admission, get it.

The bottom line remains:

Not being attracted to Jewish men (and I am one) does not make me anti-Semitic.

Not being attracted to draq queens or effeminate men (of any color) does not make me a homophobe.

Not being attracted to women does not make me a misogynist.

And not being attracted to African-American men does not make me a racist.

Very simple, very easy.


[ Parent ]
Lev,
you are wicked smart and wicked cool.

[ Parent ]
Well, don't leave us hanging!
As someone with the experience to do so, maybe you could enlighten the collective audience on the commentary on homosexuality that's worked its way into the Talmud over the years?

--GF


[ Parent ]
Why don't you educate yourself?
Torahs and Talmuds are readily available for you to study, and there's lots of info on the net that you can Google for.

Speaking for myself, I don't think Jews have to educate you when you can educate yourself.  I'm a computer programmer, not a teacher, so please do not put me in that role.

Similarly, I don't think that people of color have to educate white people (such as myself) when white people can educate ourselves.

Social outrage is power protecting itself; it is not morality. -- Andrea Dworkin


[ Parent ]
please consider this
Generally I agree with you, that people should educate themselves and that a minority should not constantly be put in the place of teacher by/for the bonelazy majority.  HOWEVER it is sometimes very worthwhile to do lazy peoples homework for them.  Why?  Because we should never trust the internets or randomly chosen books to correctly lay out the issues in ways we think they should be considered.  The only way to know someone is being presented with the view we would like them to be aware of is if we do the presenting.  Just something to consider.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.


[ Parent ]
I agree, majorities need an entry point.
Most "minorities" know one good general book or other resource to get the questioner started, and if they don't, but know someone who does (a sensible librarian, for instance), they can refer. The book or internet resource or group (think PFLAG) can provide further leads for education. Re: Judaism 101, most larger cities will have adult ed. classes at a temple, with Gentiles invited. Finding the first lead can sometimes be a problem - you can get a bunch of textbook definitions of sources of Jewish Law interpretation, but you may not necessarily grasp how the system works in practice. Nor will you be able to master the whole of the Tanakh and Talmud and later traditions in a few sittings - that's a lifelong endeavor. That's why I mentioned Rabbi Greenberg's book earlier (or somewhere in the thread) - it gave a sense of process in the interpretation of the pertinent Levitical passage. The process does seem considerably different from the way theology is presented to lay Christians - although I suppose discussions in high-level seminaries might approach the interactive nature of "the" Jewish interpretative process.

Thanks to all who posted resources. Learning is always good - among other things, it's proof of life and growth.


[ Parent ]
It's in the hands of the Rabbis
It's rather more complex than this can be discussed in this forum.  The Talmud is a specific text (a volumey text...) that is the recording of Rabbinical debates held during the 6th century, or thereabouts, on an earlier text from the 3rd century.  These are called the Mishna (older text) and the Gemora (the debates) Additional commentary on this has been collected which has become authoritative to specific communities.  These are called "Responsa".  Halacha isn't decided by the Talmud, but by the Rabbi or Rabbis of these communities.

"Complex" actually doesn't even begin to describe it.  A very quick search lead me to this:

http://www.glbtjews....

I happen to aggree strongly with this particular article.  If you go through some of the other articles, there are pro and con oppinions which might give you an idea of what's currently going on.  Conservative Judaism is kind of middle ground in the Jewish world and IMO, much more faithfully adheres to the original intent of the early Rabbis than does the Orthodox movement (which some exceptions) despite Orthodox claims. 


[ Parent ]
Teaching, sorta and bad spelling
I've considered becoming a Rabbi, btw, but opted to stick to focusing on artwork, and I spell bad.  I think I should know more and be able to teach it better and also correct my spelling before I post, but I don't...

[ Parent ]
Spelling aside...
I love your use (or perhaps invention) of the word "volumey"!  I'll have to use that sometime myself!

[ Parent ]
She didn't invent it
See Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 6 Episode 7 "Once more, with feeling."

After Willow whispers something in Tara's ear the two giggle.  Everyone looks at them to see what their solution to the town's singing problem might be:

Giles: "You know something?"
Willow (still giggling): "It's in the text; The..."
Together: "Volumey Texts!"
Tara: "We'll... just go get them..."

Feigning interest they run off out the door, giggling at their true intentions while holding hands.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the episode that turned me on to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  I was hooked.  Lesbians, drama, comedy, demons, vampires, a "scooby gang."  Who wouldn't be hooked?

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
That's where it came from!
I've been wondering where I picked that up from.  I watch a lot of Buffy...


[ Parent ]
Sure...
...I own all of both Buffy and Angel and watch them chronologically over and over again, but that doesn't make me a geek...


[ Parent ]
Nope, you're not a geek, any more than I am.
Though I never could get into Angel.  It went too far off on a tangent for me to appreciate.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
More Jewish law information
OK, now that I've had some time to do more of a search, this is the Jewish Theological Seminary's page on the issue:

http://www.jtsa.edu/...

I've linked to the history section, but if people are interested enough, the faq will explain the whole process and the additional material provides added background information. 

The actual decision is described in this Forward article:

http://www.forward.c...

It should be obvious that this is a very divisive decision, despite the fact that they made a major compromise, including contradictory decisions. 

Personally, I believe that the compromise is the nature of traditional halachic decision making that was established during the first debates in the gemora and each individual congregation and Rabbi should be free to accept the decision or decisions that work best for their community.  The decision making process was specifically set up so that it could evolve with time and anyone who is at all familiar with the Gemora with immediately notice that it is a rather rambling and contradictory text, reflecting the pluralistic approach the Rabbis took and tried to hand down.  The original fears they had about writing down the Oral Torah (which is what the Talmud is believed to be) were over the fact that once an oral tradition is written down, it ceases to change and grow with the community or reflect individual needs.  They actually held a debate over whether it should be put into writing before the process began.  Their reason for deciding to write it down was made because the majority agreed that if they chose not to do so, the entire tradition would be lost.  It was, essentially, a desperate decision and they took pains to create as flexible a system as possible.  In many Orthodox communities, the more learned a Rabbi is, the more lenient he tends to be, though this, IMO, often depends on how threatened he or his community is by modernity.  There has been an intense move to the right by many communities over the 20th century which doesn't seem to be lessening. 

Codification began to take place in the early Middle Ages.  The first complete collection (the Mishneh Torah) was made by Moses Maimonides in the late 12th century.  The second major, and many Orthodox would say final, codification occured in the mid 16th century, by Joseph Karo (the Shulchan Oruch).  The split between the Orthodox and the Conservative is primarily over the question of further changes to the Shulchan Oruch.  The Conservative believe that modernity requires an open halachic system so that the laws reflect changes that the various communities have experienced, both physically and philosophically, and that the original intent of the Talmudic Rabbis was not to set up a system that ceased to grow centuries ago.  The Orthodox view the Shulchan Oruch as the final basis on which all modern decisions should be made and few allowences for modern 'customs' and situations should be allowed.  There is a marginalized feminist movement and an extremely marginalized gay movement that is mostly hidden with a few brave exceptions, Rabbi Greenberg being one of these exceptions: 

http://ujc.org/conte...

The split between the Conservative and the Reform is over the continued valuing of Halacha over individual decision making and autonomy.  The Reform do not view the laws and customs as binding.  Basically, an individual can decide to keep some laws and customs and abandon others without the Rabbinical debate process.  Reform has become increasingly more oriented toward tradition and talmudic style learning and debate over the last few decades, however. They have been fully accepting of gay and lesbian rabbis, full equality and SSM since the '90's.  This page discusses their position:

http://www.jewishmos...

I'm aware of specific Orthodox Rabbis, mainly Lubavitch (I'm formerly Lubavitch, so I'm more familiar with this group) who are quite lenient on Lesbianism, but still forbid any sexual acts between men.  Maimonides actually made a decision on Lesbianism, based on his interpretation of non-Jewish sexual practices that are forbidden in the Torah.  His decision is based on all homosexuality being a practice of the Egyptians and Cana'anites, as odd as that sounds to modern ears, though this is based on a verse in Leviticus.  This is still accepted in most of the Orthodoxy, except that according to some Lubavitch Rabbis I'm aware of, Maimonides is not considered a halachically authoritative by the Ashkenazim (the descendents of the Germanic European Jews), so his position can be accepted by individual Rabbis or rejected.  Most accept it, I suspect do to the general homophobia and heterocentrism of the tradition. 

There are vague references to forbidden practices between women in the Talmud, but there is no consensus on what the acts actually are.

This paper discusses the relevant texts:

http://www.utoronto....


[ Parent ]
Races among the GLBT community
Having been on a couple gay chat sites, I was really surprised how many "white" gay men are attracted strictly men of color...ie..blacks, latinos...
Sure, I can find many of them extremely attractive, but for the most part I am attracted to the redneck types. I guess because I was raised as a redneck for the most part. So I'm sure upbringing has something to do with it.

I've had this conversation with Chris Crain
over at his Citizen Crain blog. For those of you who don't know Chris (a controversial gay man to many) he chose to move to Brazil because the laws of this country do not allow him to have his gay partner emigrate to America.

Anyways, he was discussing how politicians and the gay community seem to ignore this immagration problem and mentioned that, besides himself, several other top guys in the LCR also have non-American Latino partners.

I questioned that with all the available single gay men in America whether or not these ultra-white, intelligent men were, in fact, shopping for the male equivalent of mail order brides who would be deferential as opposed to looking for partners equal to themselves.

Chris' response was that they had grown up into such whitebread suburban lifestyles that they were attracted to men as opposite of what they grew up with as possible.
Growing up a New York Jew myself, I was not particularly attracted to Jewish men - something I find has changed somewhat with age.

They say opposites attract. Otherness is sexy to some people. Others just want slightly different versions of themselves. There's no accounting for attraction or its source. Is it because the first guy I mutually masturbated with when I was 12 was a red-haired Irish boy with freckles that I find red hair and/or freckles a major turn on? I'm no psychiatrist but I'd bet it's a contributing factor.


[ Parent ]
Hmmmm.....
come to think of it, my brother's bf is of Afghanistan decent and he was brought up the same as me. Of course, I'm the butch one out of us two. Not that it had to do with anything, I think. *scratches head*

[ Parent ]
The "model" minority
My mate and I are a same-sex, bi-racial couple. I am Caucasian, she is Asian.

You're right about being close enough to someone to ask direct questions. It's hard to talk about, and I'm especially careful because I am white, and aware of how my race has abused its majority status. Our trust makes it possible for me to ask & learn.

My partner has enlightened me a lot about insidious ways that cultural racism permeates thoughts and attitudes, especially the seemingly "flattering" stereotypes. Asians face the "model minority" stigma ~ smiling, gracious, smart, hard-working, etc. All stereotypes are demeaning.

One Super Bowl commercial had face-slapping replacing the knocking of knuckles among guys. In the midst of snippets of funny results of slapping someone's face was a smiling Asian man who barely flinched when slapped, kept smiling and didn't slap back. May seem harmless, but it's not.

It won't change as long as lazy writers and entertainers continue to go for cheap laughs.

Surprisingly, over on The L Word messageboard, someone posted about the show needing a "hot asian chick" since they are "high-maintenance" and "naughty". The response to my suggesting that such comments are hurtful and demeaning? "Chill out!... Don't be so uptight!"

If our experiences of discrimination because of who we love don't help us fight racism -- inside us as well as around us -- then what will?


more contact, I think, is the key
"If our experiences of discrimination because of who we love don't help us fight racism -- inside us as well as around us -- then what will?"

Ah, but your experience has changed since you partnered with a person of another race. And what I've found is that, while living a life impacted by bigotry teaches us certain skill sets, the ability to emphathize is not necessarily among them.

I think that the added value my spouse and I bring, as longtime lesbians, to the activities of raising a child of color is enormous. At the same time, we're now privy to new experiences that, as white people, had to be reported by friends of color before.

And the truth, painful as it may be, is that I'm way more furious about my 5 year old overhearing another mother tell her (white) child, "Don't play with her toys, she's dirty", than the empathy I ever felt for a friend who had that same experience.

When the same thing happened to one of my friends when we were selling Girl Scout cookies, I wasn't mad, I was confused. Yakimba's mom made her wash her hands a helluva lot more often than my mom did, so that lady doesn't know anything!

All of which supports Pam's point that we can eliminate our own racism most effectively when we have a close, intimate relationship that prompts these experiences and thoughts. Increased intimacy leads to increased empathy.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
increasing empathy
PhoenixRising, I agree with you. Well said.

I think it's important not to defend ourselves in the face of any form of bigotry. Let them defend their bigotry to us... if they can.

That pain we experience, and our children experience (we have 4 daughters)... good can come from it. That's our focus.


[ Parent ]
Nice post
I had a huge argument with my very bull-headed former roommate about this. He was always trumpeting that he wasn't racist but that he would never date anyone who wasn't white because he wasn't attracted to them. They weren't his type, he would say.

I asked many, many times how he could automatically rule out such a huge segment of the gay population without ever actually having met any of them. But he held firm.

In the end, he really was a spoiled little brat with little life experience -- and that's also why, in line with his "high standards," I never saw him dating at all. For some reason, no one would accept the invitation. :-)


It does seem to be narrowing the field a bit...
to make blanket statements "only interested in..." (race). It's not as if there are huge numbers of unpartnered, willing-to-partner gay folks out there in smaller cities. I'd say trying to "get over" the most obvious racism is a no-brainer.

I do tend to make the blanket statement about education, however. And am proved wrong on a fairly regular basis.

As for an interesting demonstration of one Jew's interaction with a text (and snippets of other rabbinical opinions), see the book by Greenberg, Wrestling with the angel. (sic) Greenberg is an out gay orthodox rabbi. The process of interpretation is different than what most Christians expect from their own experiences of theology.


no
i strongly disagree that if a person proclaims their preference towards a particular skin color, that it is a racist sentiment.  skin color is a very prominent physical feature and is generally linked to certain facial features, and an attraction to a set of ideals seems pretty normal to me. 

even when surfing the web and looking at nude photos of men, LONG before i entered the man-dating scene, i would have no physical response to a photo of a black man.  it became quite apparent that i liked guys with white skin.  there are probably a lot of reasons, going back to when my sexuality was blossoming and the high shool guys i was finding attractive.  there are probably also other reasons relating to men who have things in common with me--age, build, height, education, etc--perhaps it's a projection of an ideal image for myself.  and it's also a mere matter of the way i like the way white skin looks, and i like the physical european facial features that generally accompany them.  i've spent my entrie life mostly surrounded by white faces, including those of my family.  of course that would form a basis, wouldn't it? 

i understand why someone would create a posting on a dating website declaring that they don't want to waste a black man's time, when there is a very high chance that the physical attraction will simply not occur.  there is no stereotyping that is occuring, there is not a trace of malice involved, it's not an underlying belief that there is a biological difference between, and it's not making an assumption about a person's personality or characteristics.

i am sexually attracted to white guys.  that's not racism. 

The gays stole my lunch money


How white?
there is no stereotyping that is occuring

Yes, actually, there is. You said:

skin color is a very prominent physical feature and is generally linked to certain facial features,

That assumes that anyone who is black falls within the same range of skin tones and has the same set of facial features. Especially when dealing with those of us who are descended from former slaves, that assumption is not necessarily correct. Wentworth Miller and Vin Diesel are, by the American understanding, black, but they don't look at all like Denzel Washington or Barack Obama, who don't look like Prince or Wesley Snipes. To say that you can't see any possibility of being attracted to any member of a subgroup of hundreds of millions of people, most of whom you've never met, presumes that "they all look alike".

I admit, too that I don't quite get the idea of refusing to consider a relationship with a person based solely on physical attractiveness. Sure, I'm partial to girls who are short and curvy, but that doesn't mean that if Carrie-Anne Moss were to call and tell me she really wanted to date me, I'd say, "Nope, sorry--I don't date tall skinny girls." Especially if you're talking about long-term relationships, isn't appearance less important than things like shared interests and values? I had no idea what my girlfriend looked like at first, because we met on LiveJournal; I was attracted to her because she came across as being smart, funny, geeky and liberal, and she wrote smokin' hot porn. The fact that she's cute is just icing on a very nice cake.


[ Parent ]
of course it's a shallow pursuit
look, it's a matter of subjectiveness.  should a person always disqualify a person based on the color of their skin?  it depends--does the color of their skin still render them attractive to that person?

because the criteria listed in your comments, darkrose, are ideals.  but would you date a fat woman?  what level of fatness is too fat?  what about a woman who just had really big thighs?  sure, to be forced to spell it out is embarrassing, and it's demeaning and shallow to the group to whom you're referring, but at some point everyone has to be honest with themselves.  is smart, funny, geeky and liberal REALLY enough for a lot of people?  there are physical factors that many people find important to establish as basic guidelines.  how restrictive those are depends on the individual. 

i didn't know wentworth miller considers himself black (if he does, which is what i took away from your post).  the man who plays his brother in the series he is in looks white to me, too, but maybe he's not.  i understand that there are grey areas when it comes to how a person chooses or doesn't choose to classify themselves, and it can be very confusing. 

my classification is white.  so what i am saying is that i have found that other people who identify themselves as white are the ones i am generally attracted to. 

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
...
should a person always disqualify a person based on the color of their skin?  it depends--does the color of their skin still render them attractive to that person?

It's worth asking, though, why is it that you don't find dark-skinned people attractive, to the point that, from what you're describing, you could meet the otherwise-perfect guy, but if he could go out without SPF 40, then you'd have to turn him down.

but would you date a fat woman?  what level of fatness is too fat?  what about a woman who just had really big thighs?

Since I'm considered obese by the current medically accepted BMI standard, I can honestly say that I don't have a problem with big girls.

is smart, funny, geeky and liberal REALLY enough for a lot of people?  there are physical factors that many people find important to establish as basic guidelines.

I know that. I just don't get it. I don't care how physically attractive someone is; if I don't have anything to talk to them about, why bother? And maybe it's because I've met all of the people I've had long-term relationships with online, but I've found that if I'm interested in someone, I'll find them attractive, regardless of whether or not they meet my abstract ideal.

didn't know wentworth miller considers himself black (if he does, which is what i took away from your post).

I don't know if he does or not--my point is that by the traditional American definition, his grandmother on one side was black, therefore, he is--but you wouldn't know by looking at him. So if you're saying "I don't find black people attractive," the implication is that you are automatically crossing off everyone whose skin tone goes from paler than my girlfriend on up. I have family friends and relatives who were light enough to pass, but who still identify as black.

If you honestly could never view someone who's dark-skinned as being physically attractive, well, it's your loss. But speaking as someone who's been told that she'll never meet the Western standard of beauty, it's still painful to hear.


[ Parent ]
Darkrose, you've argued long and well.
Here's what I think Alan and Matt are missing.  Imagine that I can whoosh Kate Moss back to the 1700s.  She's a supermodel.  She's the sort of woman who dates rock stars.  Millions of men have squirted on various photos of her.  But hey, back in the 1700s, she would be seen as nasty.  Too thin.  Too boyish in her hips and breasts.  Those 18th century penises wouldn't salute her because...

...those 18th century boy brains were simmered in a different cultural stew.  The divine and late Divine would have been more likely to provoke an erection than Kate Moss, for she had the sexual heft.  So, sexual attraction isn't utterly innate.  Sexual attraction absorbs the juices of the racist stew in which we all simmer.

Alan and Matt and you white-loving lurkers, all I'm asking is that you consider a cultural component in your preference.


[ Parent ]
Exactly!
Or, as has been pointed out, Marilyn Monroe would have been told to lose weight by her agent today. She was a size 12.

[ Parent ]
Exactly!
Or, as has been pointed out, Marilyn Monroe would have been told to lose weight by her agent today. She was a size 12.

[ Parent ]
Good point.
So, if one can accept that individual perceptions of beauty shift in the context of cultural shifts and if one person believes that black ain't beautiful (or at least sexy), given the ubiquity of racism, one should at least consider that one's indifference to black beauty is partly due to cultural influences.  We're all as porus as tofu.  We all soak up surrounding juices. 

As I've posted in the past, this is why I have compassion for my racism.  I didn't choose as a bairn to be racist.  But as a porus bairn, I was subjected to racism.  I absorbed some of the vile juice, so I'm wary of my assumptions and reactions to people of color.  And I think every white person should be wary.  Being wary of oneself strikes me as good citizenship.


[ Parent ]
i don't mean to beat this into the ground...
...but i am talking about SEXUAL attractiveness, the primal feelings i have towards a specific type of body.  i certainly never meant to imply that i can't find a person of dark skin attractive.  i can view people, anyone, as incredibly beautiful, but whether i feel a sexual urge towards them is a different matter.  as with your sexuality, IT'S SOMETHING YOU DON'T CONTROL.

what some people here are failing to realize is that i'm talking about a specific trait that for me, generates a specific response.  as i stated in my first post, there are probably a lot of reasons for it--alan might have been right when he labeled it as a sort of fetish. 

the one thing that i do know is that my preferences for a light-skinned body and certain typically white features are not loaded.  they have nothing to do with whether i can find a person of any racial category (or non-category) intelligent, creative, beautiful, interesting, thoughtful, kind, or anything.  do you understand that it has nothing to do with my basic understanding of our human equality?  what i am talking about is my sexual response.  and i am acknowledging that there are grey areas.  and yes, if a fantastic light-skinned person identifies themselves as black, and understandably won't respond to an ad that specifies that i prefer white men, then it could well be my loss.  but then again, it might not be--if i have no real sexual desire towards that person, how long will our relationship last?  this is honesty, not racism.

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
Framing your proclivities as honesty and not racism...
...certainly frames you as a fine fellow and I think you are a fine fellow, but I also think you're a little too certain.  Uncertainty, while discomforting, is a prerequisite for openness.  I just urge you to remain open to the possibility that your manly carrot is porus and soaked up some of the juices of our racist culture, just as the manly carrots of straight men have soaked up an appreciation of Kate Moss, an appreciation that no 18th century straight man would have had.

One other thing, Matt.  Haven't you ever been chatting with a guy to whom you weren't drawn and then he said something sexy and suddenly he was sexy?  I'm assuming that I'm about twice your age and the older I am, the less I'm drawn to symmetrical faces and the more I'm drawn to gumption, achievement, etc.  One can't descry gumption and achievement at a glance, so I don't know whom I'll find sexy until we chat. 


[ Parent ]
thank you holly.
i appreciate your appreciation of my candidness.  but on the flip side of your question to me, have you considered that my preference for white men might NOT be seeped in the juices of our racist culture? 

let's focus on image for a second, pure image.  we keep mixing the component of personality into this discussion.  i am not saying that personalities aren't important.  for god's sake, i would hope that my writing style would convey my sense of intelligence and reason, and the magnitude i would confer onto substance over beauty.  so let's drop that component out for the sake of this discussion, okay?

taye diggs has a perfect body, a gorgeous smile, manly chin, sweet demeanor and would be considered sexy by anyone's standards, including mine.  i can be chatting with anyone and be disarmed by a comment, and find them sexy--even a WOMAN (ew!).  but finding them sexy in an abstract sense and actually wanting to have sex with them are very different things. 

to be blunt: looking at clive owen gives me a major erection, even with all his clothes on.  taye diggs doesn't, even when i am viewing his fabulous body in all it's shirtless glory.  now are YOU so certain that's something that is linked to societal racism?

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
Nope. Not certain.
The openness that I urge you to pursue is something I also aspire too.  You've probably witnessed me change my mind in these threads.  I've shifted when I've professionally written too, much to the dismay of some readers, who frame such openness to change as flip-floppiness.  So, I'm not trying to win in our conflict.  I'm trying to garner some understanding, for I assume that my position, whatever it is, automatically creates certain blindspots. 

The aspect of my argument that most persuades me is that Kate Moss wouldn't have once been attractive, but now she is.  I remember in the sixties when there were ads for powders so that women could gain weight and curves.  No such ads exist today, for aesthetic and sexual preferences have changed.  Therefore, if culture can persuade millions of men to lust for lanky Kate Moss, can't a racist culture also persuade some gay men to prefer white men? 

On the other hand, your preference for white men might be innate. 

To be frank, I'm assuming that both are positions are valid.  You probably innately prefer white men and that innate attraction is held nice and high by bookending, ubiquitous, inveterate racism, for which I don't begin to blame you.  None of us chose to be born in this racist culture.


[ Parent ]
i do believe that most all of us really do have racist tendencies
even to the slightest of degrees.  but i cringe when racism is called out automatically.  it demeans the essence of racism and can be very unfair and untrue.  open-mindedness does go both ways and assumptions should never be made, including those about whether or not a person has spent time being reflective on a given subject.  as a gay man, lonely for most of his life, i am highly, highly reflective.  i can say with certainty that there are sometimes conclusions that can be drawn on a subject that really are accurate and complete and fully-questioned.  i mostly know where my racist / sexist / homophobic (yup, even a little of that) and other stereotyped tendencies lie, and how they can manifest themselves.  but this situation we've discussed is simply not the case.  i urge anyone to look at this topic differently, because close-mindedness is not limited to racism.
 

The gays stole my lunch money

[ Parent ]
I'm not going to reply other than to say I've...
...stated my position and could only repeat it and I'll contemplate what you wrote, as is your due.

[ Parent ]
Exactly.
I don't care how physically attractive someone is; if I don't have anything to talk to them about, why bother?

I am sexually attracted to all sorts of people, of all colors / genders / religions / etc.  But it's when I get to know them a bit and find out what makes them tick, that makes the difference.

My last partner was someone who was not attractive by conventional standards.  But he was very intelligent, had a great sense of humor, and did not take himself so seriously, and that is why I stayed with him for 16 years until his death - not because he had a "hot bod".

Social outrage is power protecting itself; it is not morality. -- Andrea Dworkin


[ Parent ]
This will be considered rude
I have a question for all of the white boys who have commented that they would only date or are only attracted to other white boys. 

How dark of a tan can another man have before you would dimiss them as unworthy of your attention?


well, if it's that simple
then send some color swatches to my office and i'll pick.  will that help?  freakishly tan is also not attractive in my book. 

The gays stole my lunch money

[ Parent ]
More info
Matt,
Just so you know, I spent the first 23 years of my life on the plains of the state due west of you(I'm assuming that you are in MN)and my grandparents were from Norway on my father's side.  I'm sure you can guess what my skin tone looks like.

And yes, my question was an attempt to stir things up a bit.


[ Parent ]
That's my boy....
otherwise this nappy headed boy might still be looking for a partner!

[ Parent ]
Interesting discussion
My own experience simply tells me that I can't say with any certainty that I'd NEVER find a black woman attractive enough to consider having as a lover.  I have definitely found some black women attractive (Halle Berry...WOW!), but I can't recall having a strong physical drive to want to pursue an intimate relationship with a black woman.  Is that to say it would never or could never happen?  Nope.  It just hasn't happened yet.

Racist Acts vs. Racist People
Generally speaking, we can't get very far if people cannot even admit that racism is still part of our culture, and that one can be racist without putting a hood on and burning a cross. Look at Michael Richards. One of the striking things about his unhinged apology on Letterman was that he felt compelled to say he wasn't racist.

I totally agree, but also think we have to realize that racist acts are not the same as racist people. To me, a "racist" is someone who believes that one race is superior to another, accepts common negative stereotypes about another race, etc. With that kind of a definition, I am sure Michael Richards is not a "racist." That does not mean, however, that he is incapable of racist acts, and what he did that night was purely racist - he went to the place he knew would hurt those audience members most - their race. But that does not make him the equivalent of Bull Connor unleashing the dog.

I think one of the reasons we white people often deny the pervasive racism in society is because we don't want to admit the potentially racist reactions we might have had, acts we've done, because to admit any racist tendency seems equivalent to being a virulent white power proponent. In reality, we live in a culture saturated with images and ideas separated by race and it is impossible not to be affected by it, and sometimes we are going to react in ways that aren't so wonderful.


there is cross cultural, interracial, and more to the equation
as a gay man born with a handicap which I don't raise often, either here in pam's wonderful forum or in real life, which thankfully my employer recognizes the value of my life experiences that make me a good employee.

but in the real gay world, too many are looking for perfection over what a real mate might value

i'm glad that i have the best boyfriend that loves me for me...and hope that you all can find the same

my best to all of you in your search for the one that will make you the best you can be!


amazingly beautiful
can't say more.

[ Parent ]
thx konagod
its a source of pride for me to contribute to pam's blog and I welcome your positive comments

both greg and I welcome all the love that we get from the feedback here...

many thanks for all the kudos!!!


[ Parent ]
Just wait for the second generation!
"That could lead to more marriages outside their groups, Qian says."

When the second generation of Hispanic immigrants are old enough to marry, there will be a HUGE increase in Anglo/Hispanic marriages. I suspect that like most Americans, most of these kids are going to put off getting married until their late 20s (the growing trend).

What someone needs to do is look at current interracial dating in the teen population. Just looking at the kids I know, it is very common. Most teens just don't see it as an issue -- White, Black, Hispanic, and Asian. They are also much more tolerant of LGBT couples.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


if there were so many interracial/intercultural marriages in the previous generation
then a lot of the kids are biracial or bicultural anyway. I taught a lot of biracial and multiracial kids when I was a high school teacher. I grew up in a place where everyone was either white, Jewish, or a Korean or Indian immigrant. There was one black guy in my graduating class, maybe ten black kids in the entire school of 1200. There was one biracial girl (one black, one white parent). Fifteen years later I had a classroom with white kids, black kids, biracial white/black kids, biracial black/Asian kids, biracial white/Asian kids, immigrants from El Salvador, immigrants from Africa, refugees from the middle east...it's a different world today and trying to separate out the social construct of race from the generation that is 18 and younger right now is like trying to get back the exact molecules of water that you spilled from a glass into a bathtub of water. The kids don't consider themselves black because they have a black parent, or white because they have a white parent. They are adamant that they are black and white and they are angry when you ask them to check just one on any demographic survey. They are our best hope for combatting racism.

[ Parent ]
The coming biracial/multiracial wave
I find fascinating all the comments insisting someone can only be attracted to "white" people when it can be impossible to know purely by looking whether someone is, in fact, white.  I am as white as can be, but my children are not.  One looks a little darker skinned, so you might think she was not completely white, while everyone assumes the other two are completely white, but none of them are. 

I can't even fill out the simplest of forms for them without being stumped by the race question since I almost never see "biracial" or "multiracial" as an option.  Do I choose "white" for for them? "Hispanic"?  "Other"? 

What does it mean that I am making that choice for them? What's the consequence of choosing one over the other?  Lately, my default has become to leave the question unanswered.  As a person who answered that question her whole life by marking the first box on the list without a moment's thought, I have probably thought more about race recently in regards to my children than I have in the rest of my life all together. 


dark skinned whites
That made me think of my 2nd grade pictures.  My parents had just gotten a pool put in and I swam everyday, all day that summer before school started.  When it was time to get the pics done, I had my long dark hair braided into two ponytails, which had gotten light highlights from the sun, and my teeth were a brilliant white against my dark skin.  All the kids called me Pocahontas or little Indian girl.  I was still white but you couldn't tell it.

[ Parent ]
I think a more accurate way of putting it...
...than saying that someone is only attracted to "white" people or "black" people is to say that one has only (so far) been attracted to a certain skin color.  Not necessarily white or black as it is referred to culturally, but what (for whatever unconscious or conscious reason) is more attractive.  I can say, as a black woman, that I have (so far) only been attracted to what would be considered "ethnic" races, darkers skins.  Who knows why?  This is not limited to blacks, but rarely includes visibly "white" people.  I'm not saying that I would never be attracted to someone who is, for all visible standards, white.  It just means I haven't so far in my life.  But there's still a lot of life for me to live.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

[ Parent ]
I like your qualifying, with this caveat:
If you've never positioned yourself to be attracted across the racial rifts, it might be prudent to wonder why.

[ Parent ]
True...
I do wonder why.  Could be cultural, could be mental or emotional.  I haven't dissected myself that far to find out...yet.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

[ Parent ]
Actually Holly,
the more I think about it, the more I think it is cultural.  When I go out with some one of darker skin, there is more than likely an understanding there that may or may not be present in someone who is white.

Living in America, the majority of minorities have at some point in time been boxed in because of their race -- whether that boxing in is positive or negative.

In a relationship with someone who is themselves a minority, I will never have to explain why I talk one way with some people and another with close friends and family or be judged because of it.  Particuarly, in a relationship with another African-American, I won't have to explain why some black peope are perceived as "angry" or why I would prefer for my hair to be dreadlocked or any myriad of questions that would come and possibly never be understood because of race.

I guess, part of me could know that there might be a common ground that can never be reached on certain issues/subjects between myself and someone who is not a minority.

That's really over-analyzing myself though...on the surface, I just have a really big thing for dark skin.  What can I say?

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings


[ Parent ]
You said a lot, popsiclestand.
I've women of color argue for a little time to themselves, a moment where they won't have to tend to the white folks.  I respect that wish when POC have it.  It must be wearisome to conduct so much current and embody so much for white folks.

Regarding color and attraction, I prefer black, brown, white, yellow, red, and, of course, the blue Mystique, as played by Rebecca Romijn-Stamos.


[ Parent ]
As the one who provoked Darkrose and Holly's wrath in the first place
I think I can comfortably live with your remark as a truism for myself as well. As I've grown older my attractions and ability to attract has changed. I am not inflexible.

I've never met JoshWatermanMN or mattinmpls but I know I'm intellectually attracted to them. Whether this would overrule any physical "flaws" (not that I have any reason to believe they possess such things) in these theoretical encounters is hard to know. More often than not, as far as my experience as a gay man has shown so far, that's the dividing line between friend and boyfriend.

Also to mattinmpls - congrats for picking up the ball I put down in the discussion with Darkrose. I could see I wasn't making headway and I decided there was no point in getting further beaten up upon on a faulty premise.


[ Parent ]
i have to admit, it was a little unnerving
having my integrity called into question.  i don't take it personally, of course, and i hope you don't either.  the flexible possibilities of deep contemplation being promoted is something that i already strive towards, but it's always a good exercise to work it out in print and organize my thoughts on this subject, or any subject.  thanks for your support, alan! 

The gays stole my lunch money

[ Parent ]
racist acts vs. racist people
Callie wrote:

<< I am sure Michael Richards is not a "racist.">>

Don't be so sure. He didn't just go on a n***** rant; he also reminded the hecklers that back in the day, they'd be swinging from a tree. And he said this with the same passion and glee as a Bull Connor. That's not a slip of the tongue of a man who committed a "racist act"; that's a racist, or better yet, a white supremacist. Funny how most people, white and Black, (conveniently?) forget what was uttered along with that barrage of racial slurs.

If a white person who commits a racist act isn't a racist, then what are they?


I didn't write that btw


[ Parent ]
Subtle racism
Given everything he said, it does appear that he is racist.  However, having grown up in a community where racism was not directly discussed but very strongly implied, I experienced some very strong racist emotions in myself when I moved into an area that was mixed.  These emotions seemed to be completely unconscious until they unexpectedly rose up in me when I interacted with black people.  For a long time I was ashamed that I had these feelings and actively worked to rid myself of them.  The only way I can explain them is that I had internalized the very white, Republican, suburban and priviledged culture I grew up in, despite the fact that I had actively rebelled from my early teenage years on and loathed racism.  I do think that as children we unconsciously pick up on the biases that exist in our families and surroundings, but as adults, we become responsible for our actions.  I do think it's a gray area where sexual attraction is concerned, because that isn't something that can be dealt with on a rational level.  Certainly openness is important, but that's about all I can say. 


[ Parent ]
Nice post,
Hava.  My situation parallels yours.  I was raised in white suburbia, but I now live in a multi-racial neighborhood, which reminds me of my racism, which I loathe and work hard to minimize. 

[ Parent ]
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