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Good News: Obama - Bad News: Initiatives

by: Autumn Sandeen

Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:30:00 AM EST



Updates:

1:30 PM, PST: Legal Groups File Lawsuit Challenging Proposition 8, Should it Pass

8:42 AM, PST: Los Angeles Times: Voters approve Proposition 8 banning same-sex marriages; Passage of Prop.8 throws thousands of same-sex unions into doubt:

Voters approve Proposition 8 banning same-sex marriages. With more than 95% of the vote counted, the measure leads 52.1% to 47.9%.

Watching the tube, MSNBC is saying Prop 8 is still too close to call.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I'm writing this diary, it's been projected for hours that Senator Obama will soon be President Obama. Perhaps I should feel hopeful that in this president we'll have the best chance for a fully inclusive ENDA, have the best chance for seeing a Matthew Sheppard Act, and the best chance for letting gay and lesbian servicemembers serve openly in our military.

Of course, such hopes are marred by the results of the state initiatives this past election day.

The LGBT related initiatives did poorly.

In Arizona, the same-sex marriage ban appears to be passing. With 99% of precincts reporting, the results were 56% to 44%. This initiative is currently projected to win; this is an initiative that needed 50% plus one vote  pass -- the state itself was called for Obama.

In Arkansas, the ban on gay and lesbian couples adopting children appears to be passing. With 96% of precincts reporting, the results were 57% to 43%. As of this moment, this initiative has been called; this was an initiative that needed 50% plus one vote  pass -- the state itself was called for McCain.

In Florida, the same-sex marriage ban appears to be passing. With 99% of precincts reporting, the results were 62% to 38%. As of this moment, this initiative has been called; this was a constitutional amendment that needed 60% of the votes to pass -- the state itself was called for Obama.

And in California, we had Proposition 8. As of this moment, with 89% of precincts reporting, the constitutional amendment to the California State Constitution limiting marriage to one man and one woman is ahead 51.8% to 48.2%. The constitutional amendment hasn't yet been called -- but the state constitutional amendment needs just 50% plus one vote to pass -- the state itself has been called for Obama.

Here in my  odd world of California, there is a weird comparison of initiatives between California initiatives can be made between Propositions 2 and 8.

Proposition 2 is an initiative that was described in the initiative as follows:

The purpose of this Act is to prohibit the cruel confinement of farm animals in a manner that does not allow them to turn around freely, lie down, stand up, and fully extend their limbs.

So in my mind, perhaps the saddest commentary on "liberal" Californians sense of equality and fairness is to say that in my home state where, to this point, 63.3% of its voters found the mistreatment of farm animals something worthy of being legislated against, and 52.8% of voters believed eliminating the fundamental right of gays and lesbians to marry worthy of a state constitutional amendment.

Whether or not Proposition 8 ends up being defeated or being approved by California voters, one way to look at the Prop 8 vote is in light of the Proposition 2 vote. And that is that a larger percentage of Californians are against mistreating farm animals in hoow these animals are caged than are against mistreating gay and lesbian human beings by eliminating their fundamental marriage rights. Put simply, If one evaluates by the votes cast and the percentages of the votes cast, the rights of farm animals appear to be more important to Californians than the rights of gay and lesbian human beings.

Prop 8 hasn't been called as yet, but I'm too tired to stay up for the final votes to be counted to find out. But, I'm not hopeful that Prop 8 will be defeated, and the freedom of all Californians to marry whom they love looks to be in real jeopardy. And, the big picture is that even if Prop 8 ends up being defeated, when that initiative is coupled with the lost initiatives and constitutional amendments in Arizona, Arkansas, and Florida, gays and lesbians in the affected states lost big. With the possible exception of California, LGBT people lost big wherever their civil rights were directly voted upon. And in California, we may lose small, but still lose.

It dampens my hopes in what a Democratic Congress and Democratic President will do with a fully inclusive ENDA, a Matthew Sheppard Act, and with repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The tide just doesn't seem to be flowing in the electoral direction of LGBT citizens.

Autumn Sandeen :: Good News: Obama - Bad News: Initiatives
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There were some bright spots in Florida
In Hillsborough County, Kevin Becker looks like he'll be come the first openly gay County Commissioner. He holds a 5 point lead with 377 out of 383 precincts reporting.

And in Wilton Manors, Fort Lauderdale's GLBT suburb, it was a GLBT sweep. Gary Resnick defeated the incumbent mayor and Justin Flippen and Tom Green were elected to the city commission.

We'll take our victories where we can find them and go on to fight another day.


Kevin is a friend of mine
and we're all but certain here that he will win.

As far as the tide of LGBT rights, we need to do something drastic.  For me, this has now become the number one issue in my mind when voting.  I will NEVER vote for anyone who says something like, "i think marriage should be between a man and woman, however, everyone should have the same rights."  I have been a staunch democratic voter in the past, I think I only voted for a republican once because the democrat was a complete asshat.  Not again.  No one gets my vote without firmly standing on my side.  Obama and all my congresspeople will NOT get my vote in the next cycles if they aren't doing something proactive to help me. If all LGBT voters stand in unity for candidates who stand for us, regardless of party, our issues may become more important to the two major parties.  We need a new grass roots movement, a real "gay agenda," to make sure our voices aren't silenced and that farm animals don't have more rights then we do.


[ Parent ]
Arizona
Pam, my state was unfortunately but not unexpectedly called for McCain early on.

[ Parent ]
Oops
Sorry Autumn, I called you Pam! Too early.

[ Parent ]
Animal Cruelty v. Marriage Rights
While I fully empathize with your frustrations regarding the absurd denial of marriage rights to same-sex Californian couples, I think your line of reasoning here is dangerous (by pitting Proposition 2 against Proposition 8).

As whole-heartedly as I support the fundamental right of gay marriage, I would in an instant sacrifice (or at least, delay) this right if it meant we could eradicate needless, inhumane physical suffering of sentient animals.

These two issues (gay marriage and non-human animal cruelty) are not on the same level-and it's entirely unfair to devalue the importance of Proposition 2 because we are frustrated that Proposition 8 was not defeated.

Michael



I think all of us
would have voted to end animal cruelty.  The point is that a large number of CA voters had to make the conscious decision in the booth to vote for animal rights and against civil rights.  

[ Parent ]
I don't think I'm devaluating Prop 2 at all...

...Prop 2 wasn't a problem in relationship to Prop 8. My point is that Prop 8, which dealt with human rights, was going to win or lose in a squeaker; while Prop 2, which dealt with animal rights, won the day in a landslide. The easy correlation drawn from voting results is that the issue of ensuring farm animals aren't mistreated is a value more Californians find to be a more important value than ensuring gay and lesbian human beings retained the fundamental right to marry.

I'm not saying animals being treated less cruelly isn't important: What I'm alluding to is that to Californians, evaluated by their votes, consider treating animals with less cruelly is to be more important than treating gay and lesbian human beings with respect for their fundamental rights.

I know I, for one, would have expected that treating animals and humans with equal respect would have been among California values -- the election results dispel that notion for me.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Both And
Why does it need to be "either/or"? Why not "both/and"?

[ Parent ]
Bit it isn't and that's Autumn's point


[ Parent ]
Betrayed
I for one, feel betrayed by the African American community in California.  On a historic night where we elected our first President of color, California will write discrimination into law.  Sad.  The African American community in California voted overwhelming in favor of Prop 8.  Given the uphill battle the African American community has faced in achieving equal rights / civil rights, it really bothers me that they could have been the deciding votes to write discrimination into law in California.  Just sad.  

Someone has to say this...
The LGBT related initiatives did poorly.
Please stop referring to Prop 8, et. al. as 'LGBT' anything.

Will trans people be affected by them?  Yes - if they're in relationships that the parties in the relationship view to be same-sex .

However, now - assuming that they have passed - comes the time to ensure that the damage is limited to their operational language.  The more that we call them 'LGBT', the more ammunition that the christianists have to come back and say that they were about 'more than marriage and even more than domestic partner benefits; they were about traditional notions of man and woman - meaning all of that silliness about transsexualism is unconstitutional as well.'

Yes - they'll probably try this anyway (in spite of the fact that in CA there had been a different initiative proposal that had a chromosomal sex definition; that one didn't make the ballot.)  But, we have an obligation to not give them ammunition with which to wipe out the identity rights of trans people in CA and AZ (they were already toast in FL thanks to the Kantaras case.)

So, PLEASE stop calling these things anti-LGBT.  We have to wrap the christianists' own rhetoric around their necks.  'Its only about marriage.'  Yes - it was only about marriage.  And our position has to be that it was indeed ONLY about same-sex marriage.

>^..^<


So
when it's ENDA we're all about inclusion, when it's discrimination we're all about guarding our own turf. Gotcha. Good thing to keep in mind.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
No, when it's a battle with lies
we value the truth.

Truth is, under CA law, this is not a T issue. I have no problem recognizing that we might do better fighting the hate against our families starting from the truth, which is that we need to handle this oppression ourselves.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Thank you
I think you have the point ,Phoenix.

My point isn't about gaurding anyone's turf to the exlusion of anyone else.  I'm talking about the next battle - which will be in court and will involve not simply the bare language of Prop 8 but also the 'intent' of it.  Anyone who compares the issue of limiting the damage from something that is a done deal (Prop 8) to the creation of language in future law (ENDA and state ENDAs) either is missing the point or is simply wanting to cause problems.

If you don't like the example of Prop 8, try something that passed the last time a new Dem prez was elected: Colorado's Amendment 2.  Was it anti-LGB*T*?  Sorry, but it wasn't.

No Protected Status Based on Homosexual, Lesbian, or Bisexual Orientation. Neither the State of Colorado, through any of its branches or departments, nor any of its agencies, political subdivisions, municipalities or school districts, shall enact, adopt or enforce any statute, regulation, ordinance or policy whereby homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships shall constitute or otherwise be the basis of or entitle any person or class of persons to have or claim any minority status, quota preferences, protected status or claim of discrimination. This Section of the Constitution shall be in all respects self-executing.

Romer v. Evans ( http://straylight.law.cornell.... )got rid of this.  Irrespective of that, however, the thing said NOTHING about trans-anything.  All things being equal, I'm sure some would want to say this was anti-LGBT.  And, yes, many of the people who engineered it are as anti-T as they are anti-LGB.

But, they didn't say it where it counted.  Had Amendment 2 been allowedto tak effect, no aspect of it could have been legitimately read to prevent the State of Colorado or any city therein from enacting trans-specific anti-discrimination legislation.

Just as Barney Frank's ENDA would not positively cover trans people, Amendment 2 would not have negatively covered us.

Prop 8?  The people who enginnered it probably could have done it so as to negatively affect trans people - but they didn't.  That's a fact.  As, now, is Prop 8.  SoCal, if you're wanting to help the backers of Prop 8 by rhetorically adding trans people to its scope, well then, I don't know what to say.

Actually, I do - but I won't say it here.

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I agree
Would a trans person, say MTF who wants to marry another female, whether MTF or genetic, not be affected? Similarly for FTMs and males.


[ Parent ]
Veto?
Does Schwarzenegger have veto power to overturn this?

"It dampens my hopes in what a Democratic Congress and Democratic Congress will do with a fully inclusive ENDA,  a Matthew Sheppard Act, and with Don't Ask, Don't Tell being repealed. The tide just doesn't seem to be flowing in the electoral direction of LGBT citizens."

Autumn, we may lose this one but it aint over. Next stop, US Supreme court.  


It's a constitutional amendment and

in any case he's at least as right wing as Obama.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

[ Parent ]
Four Words:
Obama Supreme Court Appointments

We all know that it is going to take something on the federal level to really secure gay marriage. We knew that when the first ban was passed and we knew it when Massachusetts came around.

It just takes patience.

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


Won't do a damned thing
Remember Obama's own words:

I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

He's pathetic. And he's not going to appoint pro-gay judges to the Supreme Court.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
tide
The tide just doesn't seem to be flowing

I dislike thinking about these things in terms of a "tide" because the metaphor suggests that justice is won by forces beyond human control.  I want to know what I can do.

I'll have to admit that I'm fairly ignorant about the effort to defeat these restrictions.

What did we do right in protecting our families?  What can be improved upon?  Where is the organizing opportunity now?


Hey, what's everybody bummed about?
After all, marriage is between one man and one woman.  God is in the mix.  We should all vote for candidates who say so. That is change we can believe in.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


Qscribe
what a petty little MAGGOT you are, and your Q strikes me as a lie.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Thank you California.
I genuinely believed that the cruel, anti-democratic language of the proposition 'ELIMINATES', would force some sort of revulsion. I thought the spirit of Obama (despite his pandering) would spread. But his mention of us in his acceptance speech meant little. A bunch of money from Salt Lake; a lot of ignorance in black (and white) churches, and now; a stain spreading across the happiest day of my life, like blood, like poisoned blood.

You've got it backwards...
African Americans are a minority, a small one.

To be accurate you'd have to say "a lot of ignorance in white (and black) churches galvanized by Obama's bigoted statement "god's in the mix."  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  


[ Parent ]
At 630 AM PST
The LA Times reports 92% of precincts in with the roughly 52/48 split holding. The 8% percent of precincts not reporting are in San Bernardino County, where the city returns are already in. SB County is roughly the size of Connecticut and Rhode Island and the unreported precincts are in remote areas largely inhabited by recluses, rattlers and meth labs. We're not going to get much help there.

The awful news in Florida, Arizona and California is due to the bipartisan bigotry and abject cowardice of Obama, McCain and their apologists.

We can nit pick the results and put this or that factor under the microscope but the plain truth is that Obama betrayed us big time and not for the last time. Stay tuned for the next episode of "As The Stomach Turns". It ain't gonna be pretty.

My heart goes out to all the volunteers who worked their asses off opposing 8 but because of 'god's in the mix' we never really had a chance.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  


Ballot Initiatives Suck!
They're okay for deciding tax issues and public works projects, but to make it so easy for bigots to be able to vote on issues that affect other peoples personal lives is just plain f**ked up!

That's what those who live in these states should work on changing first!


can't until the bigot ballots are overturned


[ Parent ]
I went to sleep in the state of California, but
I woke up in the state of Animal Farm.
 You remember--Animal Farm, where all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

In bad taste, but
that's never stopped me before:

PETA- People Eating Tasty Animals.

Damned if I'm gonna feel guilty for my carniverous habits!

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook


[ Parent ]
Bad Energy
I realize everyone is hurt, tired, and pissed off.  We have every right to be.  When everyone is done morning these huge setbacks, dust yourselves off so we can get back to fighting for our freakin constitutional rights!

Obama is our president and whether you like the outcome or not, this is who we have to work with.  

These were Obama's words regarding prop 8:
I've stated my opposition to this. I think [Prop 8 is] unnecessary. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about. Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them.

This will ultimately be decided in the US Supreme Court but we have more work to do.

Hillary Clinton for US Supreme Court!


How is that helping?
Hillary, like Obama, is opposed to equal rights for queers. I hope that if Obama doesn't have the guts to stand up for equality, he will at least appoint judges who do.

[ Parent ]
I think the only way we will see justice is to take it to the Court...
And yes, the right will scream "activist judiciary" and it will likely become the next Roe case, but just like the Slavery issue, when it was left up to "the States" to decide, it led to chaos.

An Obama-influenced SCOTUS will likely do the right thing and settle it once and for all.

The joy over the Obama victory is tempered by the anti-GLBT sentiment still out there. I thought we'd finally come all the way.  


You think
Obama will appoint justices who do not think "God is in the mix""?!?

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
I think he will appoint Justices who will follow the Constitution.
There isn't a legal leg to stand on to support anti-GLBT legislation. Lower courts can get away with religious-based meddling, but I can't see the SCOTUS judges doing it; not even the extreme right ones like Scalia or Roberts.

Worst case scenario, they would just refuse to hear it temporarily.

Hey, I'm trying to be positive here......LOL.


[ Parent ]
Initiatives
The really BAD news about the initiatives is that the people of the USA have consigned GLBT individuals to the status of being the last publicly-identified and hated minority to be dehumanized, discriminated against, subjected to having our basic human and civil rights placed on ballots for public approval, and legally enjoined from exercising our rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

It's not looking too good right now.

Our only hope is that President Obama will use the power of his ability to exercise moral suasion, exercise real leadership on the issue of minority rights, and take whatever steps he legally can to begin to address the injustices to GLBT citizens in this country.


Yeah, that's gonna happen
I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

Is it OK with you if I don't hold my breath waiting for Obama to "exercise moral suasion, exercise real leadership on the issue of minority rights, and take whatever steps he legally can to begin to address the injustices to GLBT citizens in this country"? Blue isn't my best color.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
We had a dose of Obama's
"moral suasion" on Sunday night, remember?  Look what it got us.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
Isn't it Nice to be Upstaged by a Chicken?
A friend's response to a comment I made re. Prop 2 that ended with the above:

Happens all the time on the gay scene


____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.


Yes...but then...Stonewall...
and ACT UP also 'happened'... stay involved, meet people tell your story and stay engaged and open..and you have to be seen and will be respected more each day.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


[ Parent ]
Not Obama's fault
He wouldn't have been elected if he came out and said he is for gay marriage pure and simple.  Now, we know how he stands on it and McCain was on Ellen and flatly said he disagrees with her on gay marriage and that is the way it is.  Obama said he is for decisions by states. And, even though he isn't saying things publicly we know he doesn't like discrimination.  Remember in his speech he talks about gay/straight divisions among others.  

Time is on our side.
The 18-29-year olds were 65% AGAINST Prop 8.  Prop 8 passed by less than 2%.  We should put repeal on the ballot every damn year.  The people against are dying off.  Look how much they had to spend to win in a squeaker.  And let's be honest, gay marriage affects such a small segment of the population we had a big hurdle to overcome to get to 45%.
I say we put this on the ballot every year until we win.  And the second we win one, we put another initiative up requiring 60% approval for constitutional amendments.  

Whatever Works
It sure seems to work for the Religious Reich.  If you don't like the outcome of an election, just keep coming back and hopefully wear people down until your side wins or until enough of the other side dies off.

I still say the whole ballot initiative system is totally f**ked up, but you do what you've gotta do.


[ Parent ]
My thoughts
I'm very sad that we lost. It was about what I expected, but for me personally, worse than I thought it would be.

I do have one thought- something I wrote in early September in an editorial that appeared in the BAR.

I had asked Mark Leno personally if they were going to do the liberal tolerance-equal rights strategy, pointing out that it had never worked before (except in AZ- once), or if they were going to show actual gay people, actual families, gay people attending church- you know, reality. He said that the focus groups had indicated that liberal tolerance was the way to go. I made the same point to HRC's Marty Rouse at a fundraiser, and he repeated Leno's line.

I didn't work much with No on 8 because of their stated approach and because they seemed totally uninterested in having a speakers' bureau to reach out to community groups and churches. Phone banking is what they were interested in and wanted volunteers for, not personal contact with real voters. (I tried phone banking once, but hated every minute of it. It seemed flat-out WRONG). Stuff of value to political operatives in their world, but totally divorced (in my opinion) from the real world. I did attend one training directed at churches, where in we were told NOT to use words like prejudice, children, gay marriage, religion, and so on- you know, reality. We were told that the pro.8 people had "co-opted" the issue of children. It was no longer ours to use.

I heard this with disbelief. I gave the campaign money (including FL and AZ), though I did it to show commitment, not because I believed in the approach. I raised a bunch of money, I even gave them some of my time, but I put more energy into Marriage Equality USA, and doing what I could do myself.

Though this political approach has merit, it is very troubling to me. It smells uncomfortably of the closet, which I have long maintained is the real enemy, not the Radical Right. It tells us to be invisible, not to talk about our lives and the REAL issues we face, lest we offend some undecided voter who needs to be manipulated into doing the right thing.

It avoids the larger issue of anti-gay prejudice, an apparently invisible 800 pound lavender gorilla. Research and experience show that people who know gay people tend not to vote against them. If we do not show gay people, we remain a faceless, menacing other, instead of friend, neighbor, or family. It is easy to vote against someone who is invisible.

And we were quite invisible.

I know that the California battle was important, and that we will be back. It's not over. But I will say this much about any future campaign:

If it is going to be this type of campaign again- focus groups, polling, phone banking, and irrelevant ads that look good on a political resume but are useless in swaying people- don't expect one dime of my money, one minute of my time, one iota of my energy.

I am angry as hell about this. I feel betrayed by our leaders. The handwriting was on the wall that a new approach was needed, and they preferred to immerse themselves in their political culture and operatives rather than show the simple facts of our lives.

And the result- more people thought that the standard of living of animals raised for food was more important than the civil rights and families of their fellow Americans.

I may have more to say later. Right now, I feel too weary.


Agreed
Ben, I agree with you wholeheartedly.  There will be other campaigns around this issue in California, but EQCA has forfeited the opportunity to take the lead.  The strategy of having a principal organization was perhaps good at first, but when it became apparent that our messages were not getting through--and that the other side was going to fight particularly dirty--too many of the otherwise strong and vocal leaders in our community did not (publicly, anyway) insist on a stronger message or ground strategy, nor did they spearhead much effort outside the umbrella of the official campaign.

I too am deeply disappointed and very angry, notwithstanding my happiness and relief about the presidential election.  So disappointed that it is difficult to speak.  Writing out my thoughts in a civil tone has helped me calm down somewhat this morning (http://www.doebler.us), but the sting is very sharp.


[ Parent ]
thanks for saying it
I was just too damn tired.

I didn't give a dime or a minute to this doomed effort once I was told that our plan was to pretend we're not hated and preach to the converted.

I wanted to be wrong.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Take a deep breath...
And say yes we can...Marilyn Musgrave, author of the federal marriage amendment lost last night by like 10%! (It felt REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY good to vote against her!)

We just have to hold Obama's feet to the flames and make sure that doesn't turn his back on us in the style of Bill.


asdf
We just have to hold Obama's feet to the flames and make sure that doesn't turn his back on us in the style of Bill.

I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

Too late.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the reminder
Thanks, drunkfencer. Hers was definitely the Congressional care I cared about the most.

While it's depressing to realize how many MILLIONS of people made a conscious choice to take out rights away, we DO need to look on the very bright side in the vast majority of races yesterday.


[ Parent ]
One bright spot for equality
Is also DC, where we have a very pro-equal marriage city council. They have not acted at this point because of the GOP controlling Congress/White House. With the GOP weakened and a Dem administration, DC should move into the equality column by next spring.

As for the federal level and other states, I think we have to realize it is time for direct action in addition to legal battles. We have to take to the streets (and I would even advocate blocking Mormon "churches") or we will not be heard.  


Again, I'm less than hopeful.
Tobi Hill-Meyer: DC Set to Rollback Trans Rights

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Religious Alibi, Not Race
Pam, I've been thinking about this a lot this morning.  I do not think we're dealing with a race issue here.  I think is is the use of religion as an alibi for discrimination.  We know a large number of black people are involved in fundamentalist religion.  We know that a large number of Hispanics are Roman Catholic.  And then there are the Mormons and other radical religionists.  From that perspective, race is involved only as it relates to fundamentalist religions.   Whites are just as guilty as people of color.

I think we have to look beyond the obvious connection of race with discrimination against gays.  The issue transcends race.

The problem is that we in the US permit people to use the alibi of religion to engage in legally enforced discrimination again GLBT people.  


Absolutely Mike....

I have been arguing that during the whole PROP H8 campaign, but since people who RELY on religion to be their supergos so they won't have to take the energy to think for themselves..cuz then they are protected forever in the hereafter, right?  There is no way to refute those ploys.

The way to refute them is the the same way BARACK won...introduce them to REAL people, gay people, gay families..they will vote for those whom they befriend.  Ellen should have been holding every single show since June about another gay couple and family..she had the best platform imaginable to protect and preserve her own marriage and she DIDN't.

I believe that the marriages that took place before NOV 4 will be upheld. But that is no hope for all the young gay people of today. We need to dig in and support them and their futures as never before. All my $$ now goes to PFLAG!! 



It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


[ Parent ]
I meant to include something else
Barack Obama is as much to blame for this as anyone else.  He is on record as saying it is his religion that makes him support discrimination against LGBT people.  

[ Parent ]
Not as much
More. Way, way more. He's the one who had microphones shoved in his face every time he opened his mouth. He's the one who assured us he represented the very best intentions of all of us, and that best included:

I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage.


Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
I want to picket
the inauguration. I'm serious. I want to be there with big signs that call Obama out for his bigotry and lay the bleeding corpse of my marriage at his feet.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

Put the blame where it belongs
On the people who took your money and your time to get you equality and then allowed it to be taken away by your neighbors without putting up a fight.

You cannot convert voters by reciting the facts to them. That is the reason marketing and psychology exist. (Not implying the two disciplines are equal.)

It's not Obama's fault, though he could have been a lot more help at no risk to his victory. It's our fault. read Ben's summary for why.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Four years ago
antigya ballot measures were passing with 70% of the vote across the country.  Today they're barely passing with 52%.  Where do you think we will be in another four years?
It sucks now, but the bigots are dying off or being won over.

Yes....so lets get in there...

...and get our AGENDA rolling again to support a fully inclusive ENDA, repeal DOMA and DADT..get a supportive SCOTUS and a NATIONAL law.  After all, Pam and Kate, who are married, have no legal recognition in their state..as do many others..

It will be a matter of constant badgering of the courts to get the FREEDOM to MARRY enforced.  Come to think of it...I guess some of my $$ will certainly go to the ACLU too if they will take on these cases. 



It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


[ Parent ]
What?
We don't start from 0 each time. Four years ago the easier states fell. Each time a round of amendments is put up, we lose more. We've gained nothing and lost 2/3 of the country. There's no reset button that will put us back where we were and remove the amendments that have already passed. And there's no hope - at least not in my house - that the bigot we just elected will spend even a second worrying about appointing justices to the SCOTUS who will correct it. The only change Gay America can believe in is the continuing erosion of our rights. The Constitutional scholar seems to have unearthed that little clause at the end of the first section of the 14th Amendment the rest of us never saw: "except the fags".

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
CA voted against gay marriage 61-39 the last time
This time is was 52-48.  We ARE making progress.

What we have to guard against, though, is if the fundies next push a ballot measure requiring a supermajority for further amendments.  We should put gay marriage up in CA until it passes, THEN lock it in with an amendment altering the amendment process.


[ Parent ]
Last time
was an election cycle that ensured a high percentage of Repugs turned out to vote while apathetic Dems stayed home. Less than 30% of registered voters voted. The much-touted "61% of Californians" was less than 19% of registered voters.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
Not just California
There were 3 other states that had anti-gay initiatives:  

Arizona same-sex marriage ban passed 56% to 44%
Arkansas ban on gay and lesbian couples adopting children passed 57% to 43%.
Florida same-sex marriage ban passed 62% to 38%.

Four years ago antigya ballot measures were passing with 70% of the vote across the country.  Today they're barely passing with 52%.

It appears your 70% vs 52% comment pertains only to California. Please remember there are many, many LGBT people that live in one of the other 3 states who are going through a range of very negative emotions today.

I am rarely at a loss for words. But today I cannot even begin to describe the extent of my outrage. In my home state of Florida amendment 2 passed with 62%, much higher than barely passing.


You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.  


[ Parent ]
I noticed on the View
The joy and tears for America's children can grow up to be anything, and the anti-gay initiatives put a BUT in that statement...except if you're queer.

CA I am profoundly disappointed in you, UT and LDS and Black Chritian conservative, DON'T EVER ask my help for ANYTHING. Your cities and homes could be in ashes, or rumble from fires or earthquakes, and I won't lift a finger...EVER.
This is especially difficult because Mormons make up half my family.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


I wrote the Salt Lake Tribune a blistering letter to the editor
What their hatred of LGBTs has bought them.
Here's a link to companies in UTAH I will boycott, as well as them being dependent on tourism for their ski resorts.
  http://utahsown.utah.gov/cons_...
btw. TODAY isn't the day to tell me about some gay/lesbian maybe getting hurt by a boycott of Utah....trust me don't EVEN go there.

I did find a cartoon of Uncle Sam and Barack fist bumping I enjoyed

 http://extras.mnginteractive.c...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Feet to the fire
Barack Obama ran an amazing campaign and convinced a nation hungry for change that he was the right person to lead us forward.  But he also convinced many voters that he isn't THAT liberal, and like many democrats before him, he used his tepidity toward LGBT issues (including explicit anti-marriage language)in establishing his bona fides as a moderate.  I've heard literally dozens of LGBT people argue that Obama is really our friend but couldn't be too overt about it during the campaign.  They argued that getting Obama elected represented a greater good and that our community needed to enthusiastically support him, even though that enthusiasm wasn't reciprocated. Pragmatically, I understand but don't agree with that position.  But now he's been elected.  It's time for our community to stop 'taking one for the team.' And it's time for Barack Obama to support equality for all Americans.    

THANKS folks...
for being here this AM.  I am just crestfallen and heartbroken...and I didn't cry until just now...so pardon the typos.  SOOOO SORRY!  So close!  So ashamed of living in California and I never was before!  So LETS GET TOGETHER and keep on fighting, after all Pam and Kate deserve to have their marriage recognized too, so we have to fight for national recognition....PERIOD.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


That's nothing..
I called work to say I was taking a "personal day".  My union type work doesn't even have that provision...but everyone will get it.  

I ask everyone to think of our opponents...yes the ones that VOTED against our civil rights.  They are the ones we need to interact with, well, that and plus the continuing education of our straight allies.  Example, like at work last night, I had a captive audience of 9 guys, all Democrats and hanging on the outcome...Of course I talked Prop 8.  One younger guy mentioned about partners being turned away from visiting their loved one.  A guy responded in disbelief, "Nah, that doesn't happen."  We've got to pound it into the heteros head (present company exempt because you're already there :) ) about the constant inequities whether they're in employment, relationship recognition, health issues, etc.  

Yeah, the peeps at work will notice my "personal day" off.  I am greatly affected.


[ Parent ]
Expectations
I expect that the majority of those that voted for Prop 8 will try and justify their vote to other, especially their gay friends and relatives, by saying (again), "Oh, I'm not against gay people, I'm just for traditional marriage."  Or, "I don't believe in discrimination against gays, I'm just for traditional marriage."

To which my response would be, "Good for you!  Now take your 'traditional marriage' and go f**k yourself!"  


[ Parent ]
Yeah
That's why I gave my boss a heads-up yesterday that I wouldn't be in if Prop 8 passed. I've had anger management issues over this whole thing. If someone tried to justify their vote to me, I'd probably pop him one. Much better all the way around if I stay home and gather myself.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
You had more forsight than me
I only figured out I couldn't go into work today after the presidential election was called and then found out Prop 8 was  going Yes.  For me tho, everyone I was working with all day yesterday...that's 10 people...they all voted NO, yet the congratulatory climate today I wouldn't have been able to deal with.  My absent serves two purposes: I need the distance, and my co-workers have to acknowledge this defeat was no little thing.

[ Parent ]
I work for a defense contractor
there are a lot of right wing people at my job, and many of them have been very uncomfortable around me since my boss circulated that I was getting married. People I used to talk to on my smoke breaks avert their eyes and mumble hello when I go out to the smoker area. One program manager requested a different engineer for his program. I wasn't surprised, his bookshelf is filled with books refuting evolution and arguing for "intelligent design". Too bad for him I'm the only one there with expertise in the subject matter. Normally I look at it with humor, that people are so uptight they'll let my existence rule them so completely that I affect their mood. Today that would be a difficult viewpoint.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
Similar work situation
I work with 9 others, all straight, all voted No on amendment 2. Although I was outraged, and part of last night and today despondent, I decided I had to go to work. When I walked in this morning the first person screamed "congratulations!!!" I gave her this WTF look and she said "Obama won." My look didn't change and I could see she was confused so I said "I'm very happy that Obama won. But I'm outraged that I pay 1st class taxes and now have become a 2nd class citizen by Florida voters." I could tell by the look on her face that she got it. Later the rest of the staff and I talked about what this amendment passing means to LGBT, they all understood and were very supportive.

You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.  

[ Parent ]
Confused as hell
1)How can the highest authority of California, the state Supreme Court, simply have its ruling overturned by a voer ballot initiative?

2) Does this also outlaw any other kind of legal recognition, including domestic partnerships

3) Nobody has mentioned that abortion limits were also defeated by very conservative states. That was certainly a huge change. Maybe we need to give it another election cycle and let the younger people, who don't even want to define themselves in terms of sexual orientation, vote this bigotry out of the US once and for all.

And here I was planning to move to Florida or California. FUCK THEM.


Here's how it goes...
1) Prop 8 was written as a constitutional amendment, so it changes the document on which the California Supreme Court based its ruling.

2) You can bet the LDS, RCC, etc. will be suing to demand the dissolution of California domestic partnerships.  Probably won't have much luck...but they might try another amendment for that.

3) At least Prop 4 looks like it's going down.


[ Parent ]
Forget DPs dissolution
I'm surprised ADF hasn't filed for a stay of the May CA Supreme Court ruling already to nullify the summer marriages.  Hey its' the next day.  What are they waiting on?

[ Parent ]
What happens--
--to those people who got married between the court ruling and Nov. 4?  Are they retroactively de-married, annulled, sent to boot camp?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Like I said,
ADF or some entity will sue to make sue the summer marriages are nullified.  I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

The irony to me is that for the California Marriage cases, the State of California was a defendent defending Prop 22.  Now the State will be a defendent defending marriage equality.


[ Parent ]
Is there a precedent?
Has a state supreme court in the US found an inherent right that was then denied or stripped away by a constitutional amendment?  And if so, what happened then?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Don't know
The immediate fallout of Prop 8 passing and ADF trying to nullify summer marriages is a different action than pro equality forces trying out the "revision" aspect of the amendment for which I don't know if there is precedent.

[ Parent ]
Maybe
Dear Abbey:

Is it possible that the spectacle of--what is it?--18,000 people being deprived of their marriages, or however one wants to put it, might bring CA to its senses?  I'm grasping at straws, I guess.

I'm hoping that the legal tangle will be resolved in a pro-marriage way.  So perhaps there not being any precedent is a good thing.

You have to wonder 1) why the CA Supreme Court refused to stay its ruling back in the summer and 2) why the opinion specifically found a right to marriage in the state constitution.  Did they foresee the amendment passing and prepared the way to smite it upon a challenge.

Here's another question for CA lawyers/historians.  has an amendment to the CA state constitution ever been voided by the court?

Lev in Michigan, still marveling at CA turning to the right and MI turning to the left at least on medical marijuana and stem cell research

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
Yes a Constitutional Ammendment has been overturned before.
http://www.nclrights.org/site/...

This would not be the first time the court has struck down an improper voter initiative. In 1990, the court stuck down an initiative that would have added a provision to the California Constitution stating that the "Constitution shall not be construed by the courts to afford greater rights to criminal defendants than those afforded by the Constitution of the United States." That measure was invalid because it improperly attempted to strip California's courts of their role as independent interpreters of the state's constitution.

And there is already a case in the pipeline.  I suggest everyone visit the National Center for Lesbian Rights and read the info there.  They explain the current situation, the refusal to concede this proposition, and the efforts already underway to challenge this in court as illegally altering the State Constitution.

They have a good site and have good resources:

http://www.nclrights.org/site/...


The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
Pro gay Lawsuits in the works already
http://www.mercurynews.com/bre...

Two lawsuits planned.  SF City Attorney will challenge the constitutionality of Prop 8 and Robin Tyler and partner, the first couple to be married in Los Angeles will file lawsuit teamed with civil rights attorney, Allred.  Don't know what their angle will be.  


[ Parent ]
Thanks Karen!
Thanks for the update.  

If Glora Allred thinks they can argue that it's not constitutional, then the argument that an amendment to the constitution becomes the law and is therefore constitutional won't fly.

I assume that the argument will be made, as well, that letting this abridgment of rights stand opens the door to propositions taking away rights from other groups.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the country, the Democrats seem to have taken control of both houses in New York State, so we'll see how swiftly the Governor moves ahead for gay marriage.  And maybe this action in California push the NJ legislature to go from civil unions to marriage?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
Wonder if they're still listening.
Contact Yes on 8

http://www.protectmarriage.com...

watashi no yomeiri wa doko desu ka


My Job as a Straight Ally
I am in shock over the passage of Prop 8. I cried when Obama won, and I cried when I heard that California had legislated hate. I am going to talk to every one that will listen for the next four years about the need to overcome discrimination. We can not move ahead until we change our laws to protect the equality of all American voices. I am starting today with some well thought out letters urging my Conservative family members to take another look at this issue. Everyone worked so hard and paid so much for the defeat of this hatefull measure. I vow to continue this fight until LGBT members of my country have the same rights as I do.

Thank you.
That's what we all need.  Straight people need to understand discrimination affects them too, because someone they know and/or love is gay.

[ Parent ]
And even--
--if they don't know someone gay, it doesn't matter.  Injustice done to one segment of the population is wrong because it's wrong.  Living in a climate of exclusion is grotesque and deforms a society whether people can see the harm or not.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
CNN slices and dices the numbers
The young and educated folks are with us.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20...


We failed in California
The gay community, nationwide, were outspent by out-of-state Mormons because they were lazy and complacent. I'm 7000 miles away and  I feel this defeat keenly; it's poisoned the Obama victory for me. Some close friends were married yesterday in SF: now they're in limbo. This is why HIV rates are rocketing in NYC; this stupid complacency. Lesbians drive gay civil rights; I have lost my confidence in stupid f--king men. PS: I'm male.

We weren't outspent or out-worked
we were out-thought.

The people who think their magic underwear will get them into Heaven developed a plan in harmony with how people think and feel, used proven psych and sales techniques, and beat us like a big bass drum.

That's embarrassing, but must be confronted.  

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Outspent
When you have zealots taking out second mortgages on their homes just to contribute to a ballot measure, how are you going to compete with that?!

[ Parent ]
I'm not even American, but I'm gay and I sent 50 dollars
Talk to the club queens in NYC about it and you'll get nothing but a blank, ketamine stare. Pathetic.

[ Parent ]
prop 8 vs prop 2
"Put simply, If one evaluates by the votes cast and the percentages of the votes cast, the rights of farm animals appear to be more important to Californians than the rights of gay and lesbian human beings."

I'm not sure that you can put it quite that simply.

08 - Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry
 YES:  5,220,694        52.2%
 NO:   4,792,873        47.8%

02 - Standards for Confining Farm Animals
 YES:  6,113,393        63.3%
 NO:   3,555,798        36.7%

You don't know what the overlap is of those who supported prop 2 vs those who were against prop 8.  Your argument assumes that the majority who supported prop 8 also supported prop 2.  

Two different votes on two very different issues. The logic behind your argument doesn't make much sense.  I'm sure there were voters such as Ellen who were against prop 8 but for prop 2.  

Although prop didn't pass... it was close and 47.8% of California residents do believe in same sex marriage.  Maybe it is time to focus on that outcome.  


3 million?
The San Jose Mercury article Karen links above says there are still 3 million ballots outstanding.

Is that good or bad for gay marriage?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

Press conference about Prop 8 lawsuit
Gloria Allred, civil rights attorney, is holding a press conference at noon, that's right now, to announce the lawsuit.

I turned on the news to see if I could see it...it's not one quite yet, but I did catch a snippet of a local news bit about prop 8 passing noting that Los Angeles County has stopped isssuing marriage licenses to ss couples....

I knew that was a reality of Prop 8 passing, but to actually hear it reported was a slight sting.


But has the proposal really passed?
http://www.sacbee.com/election...

Opponents cite millions of outstanding ballots.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
Techincality
Guess it doesn't matter does it?  If the clerk stops issuing licenses, well....

[ Parent ]
Thanks for link, Lev
Forwarding to a friend of mine, recently married in CA and worried that she and her wife are now not married... I looked up a story from about a week ago here and forwarded this as well:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook


[ Parent ]
These groups so get my contribution money again this year
Filed today
The American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights filed a writ petition before the California Supreme Court today urging the court to invalidate Proposition 8 if it passes. The petition charges that Proposition 8 is invalid because the initiative process was improperly used in an attempt to undo the constitution's core commitment to equality for everyone by eliminating a fundamental right from just one group lesbian and gay Californians. Proposition 8 also improperly attempts to prevent the courts from exercising their essential constitutional role of protecting the equal protection rights of minorities. According to the California Constitution, such radical changes to the organizing principles of state government cannot be made by simple majority vote through the initiative process, but instead must, at a minimum, go through the state legislature first.


[ Parent ]
A plea to ethnic LGBT
The outreach you speak of Pam, must include LGBT of color to start being honest with their families and friends. In other words, don't live your lives on the DL. Over and over again, we find that great progress is made with the American community at large when they get to know who we are. We must all give them the opportunity to share our lives. It is much harder to marginalize us if we know who we are on a person to person basis.

T Swint - married to my partner of 34 years on July 29, 2008.


SD Resident
Even th ough I am from South Dakota, I donated to the 'No on 8' campaign.  It hurts me to see this get passed (at least initially).  

I can take the crumbs of the Victory Fund winners as well as the belief that ENDA will be put back on track and that DADT will be repealed, with a bigger majority and the backing of President Obama.


Thoughts From A Californian
Donna wrote regarding a possible Schwarzenegger veto:
It's a constitutional amendment and in any case he's at least as right wing as Obama.  

Donna's right about a governor not being able to veto a constitutional amendment.

However, it should be pointed out that both Obama and Schwarzenegger urged a "No" vote on Prop 8, despite neither being in favor of gay marriage.  I think that both of them approached this from a "constitutional amendments should not eliminate rights" perspective.

Unfortunately, opposed-to-gay-marriage-but-vote-no-on-Prop-8 was a difficult/confusing message to sell.  My wife and I received a Yes On 8 robocall election morning that included a snippet of Obama's debate answer (I believe) about not being in favor of gay marriage without, of course, mentioning that he was opposed to the proposition.

Personally, I'm just really, really sad that we still live in a world where politicians feel that they cannot just come out IN FAVOR of gay marriage, rather than being opposed (as long as we don't discriminate)...

And, BTW, what the $#%&*@% kind of a state would allow a 50% majority of voters in a single election on an ballot initiative -- which never even went to the state legislature -- to eliminate someone's rights?!?!?


Not theory
My spouse raises this point

It's not as if the proposition was passed in limbo, proactively as it were to prevent people from doing something in the future that had not been done in CA.  It now effectively is depriving 36,000 Californians of a right they have enjoyed (though briefly).  So that strengthens the legal case against 8, which is why the CSC did not stay the decision, but let it go into effect even though the amendment was on the ballot.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


Prop 8
More and more evidence is emerging that attraction to someone of the same sex (and attraction to someone of the opposite sex) is hardwired into our brains before we are born.  So, unless the evidence is refuted, CA has just added a constitutional amendment that discrimates against innate traits that a portion of the citizenry are born with (redundant).  The standard for the unchangeable differences of human beings has never been to have a popular vote to decide the fate of people born with unchangeable traits.  If it were the case that these things were put to a popular vote, we may still have slavery today.  We may still have women unable to vote or own property.  So, do gays now have to conform to some unnamed standard (celibacy? sterilization? genocide?) that the majority determines? This is a ridiculous amendment that will never stand.  It is, without question, unconstitutional.  I understand all the baloney about Hillary and Barack not being able (for political reasons) to say they support marriage for all adults who want to enter into it.  But this has gone too far.  Second class citizenship is now constitutional law in CA.  As a woman married to a woman, I understand the "uncomfortableness" of my position from an historical standpoint.  However, unless the country can prove that my "gayness" is changeable, I should have equal rights.  It can only follow that a gay woman can marry a gay woman.  That is what is right and equal in that situation.  To say otherwise is simply not speaking the truth.  Finally, science will eventually prove that maleness and femaleness are not mutually exclusive entities, neatly bestowed into human beings, 100% one way or the other.  So, for all the literal Bible interpreters out there, a woman marrying a woman (from what it looks like on the outside), has the potential of creating exactly the 100% male and 100% female ratio that the Bible describes.  It is so annoying to me that this fact is not already self-evident, but it is a fact that will eventually come to light.  Maybe, because this has happened now, true equality will speed to us all the faster.    

Even if it's not innate
We protect people based on their CHOICE of religion.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Obama's Mind
When it comes purely to winning the election I think we may assume he (and all his advisors) thought being any more LGBT-friendly than he was would dim his chances.  Personally I think he could have tweaked his message a fair amount more in our direction--certainly without saying "I favor same-sex marriage"--and perhaps that way could have had a greater positive effect on Prop 8.

When it comes to Obama's REAL thoughts on LGBT issues, who can say?  We know he is/was NOT a member of a fundamentalist church.  In fact, the denomination (UCC/United Church of Christ) he belonged to for the past 20 or so years is one of the most LGBT-positive that exists in this country.  I don't know whether the particular UCC church of which Rev. Wright was the pastor reflects typical UCC beliefs--does anyone know?

I'm prepared to have less than full support from Obama but I'm not willing to prejudge him or his real beliefs at this point based on statements made during a political campaign that looked very close at least up until the financial meltdown starting moving the polls in a big way.  


Mormon missionaries I suggest you don't come knockin on MY door
LDS keep your youth missionaries in countries other than the USA, we don't want to see them hurt.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


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