The day after - the bad stuff and a challenge to the lgbt community

Are you open to some feedback?

Your points about our collective ignorance of the history of our country's most successful civil rights movement are correct.

I'd even go further: As a white person I have had the cringe-inducing experience of listening to white gay men compare themselves to Freedom Riders more than once. They never respond well to a mild mention of how ignorant and disrespectful that is, which is indicative of how far we have yet to travel as a community.

While there are parallels in the moral dimension between the two movements, I think we're in desperate need of further education to understand that in the practical dimension it's simply rude to compare our situation with that of sharecroppers who couldn't vote. So yes, we need a vocabulary to describe our problems that doesn't rely on inaccurate metaphor.

Where I have to differ with you is on your suggestion that we should all come together and paper over our differences. What I saw in the campaign against Prop 8 was a group of people who are not in agreement about goals, let alone tactics, being punked by backward-compatible nutters who think that their magic underwear lets them baptize dead folks. Had 'our side' been united about the importance of this fight, we might have been able to create a more effective campaign.

But wait, there's more!

---

by: PhoenixRising @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 19:31:49 PM CST

Why?

I'd even go further: As a white person I have had the cringe-inducing experience of listening to white gay men compare themselves to Freedom Riders more than once. They never respond well to a mild mention of how ignorant and disrespectful that is

Why is it ignorant and disrespectful? I'm asking as a serious question. The two situations aren't directly analogous, but what two situations are?  

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 21:22:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I chose that example carefully

A relative of mine, who is white, was on the Freedom Rides. She risked her life and lost the support of her family to support the principles that separate isn't equal and discrimination is always wrong. I know no one, except Mel White, who has been willing to show the emotional and physical courage that those 19 year olds displayed when they got back on that bus after the first assault.

Where our movement is weak, IMO, is our inability to clearly and correctly identify the opportunities to confront that kind of hate and endure it peaceably. We haven't done it. We have not sent our kids out to be bitten by dogs and sprayed with a fire hose. While we have our martyrs (Matt and Harvey) we haven't systemically approached our oppression with the willingness to suffer in order to convert the apathetic into supporters.

The No on Prop 8 campaign provides a number of perfect examples--why, oh Lord, would we NOT want moms and kids knocking on doors to explain how marriage affects them?--but I don't want to thread-jack further.

But wait, there's more!

---

by: PhoenixRising @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 23:02:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Parallels and Differences

Ok, so I know that the GLBT civil rights struggle is not EXACTLY like the black civil rights struggle, however, both groups are/were fighting for civil rights and this is the similarity that binds us together.  Hell, every single minority group that has fought for civil rights has similar themes running through them.  Black folks DO NOT have the market or singular uniqueness of being marginalized, persecuted, discriminated against, physically, spiritually and emotionally abused, etc. So when someone makes a rough analogy of the struggles they face with another civil rights struggle, instead of focusing in on the differences, why don't you open your eyes to the similarities as there are many.

Secondly, I do not identify with any group when they live and act as victims. May I humbly suggest here is that this is where you may be coming from? E.g. only blacks were persecuted as sharecroppers who couldn't vote, so they win the biggest victim prize and you can't come close to what I/they have endured.  Hell, not to poke holes in your glaring example, but there were plenty of white women sharecroppers who could not vote who suffered greatly at the hands of their husbands, society and their bosses.

Thirdly, it may be a good idea for you to "paper over our differences" you have with others who share the common goal of equality for GLBT community members.  Remember the Rainbow Flag?  It is a wonderful symbol of this concept.  Many unique and separate colours coming together forming one (flag) united community.  

One way we can be somewhat different from the Black community is by supporting decentralized leadership...e.g. not one Martin Luther King or one Jessie Jackson, but the acceptance of 10,000 different leaders of similar or different shades or ideas all at the same time.  We need to hit this civil rights struggle with all angles and all ideas. All of them have merrit.

With this in mind, I still firmly believe that the biggest and most POWERFUL form of activism is just showing the world who you are.  And you can only do this by investing time and work in discovering your true essence. So in reality, we are all leaders and activists.  This is how we change attitudes and minds.  The simple fact of being (inside the body of a GLBT person) is always unique as the snowflakes that can form a snowball or an avalanche.  There is plenty of room for all of us to contribute in all sorts of ways.  You may agree or disagree by some of the modus operandi utilized but if it is moving us in the same general direction who really cares.  In fact I say the differences need to be celebrated, not scorned or suppressed.

Peace.
 

vanhattan

---

by: vanhattan @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 22:41:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'll work with anyone who shares my goals

but we need to stop and identify what the goal is first. The mission of the No on 8 campaign, as judged by its tactics, was to avoid having any gay person confront a Yes voter.

While I'd love to be able to get our rights, move voters and confirm our litigated victories without anyone having her feelings hurt--it's not going to happen. Far from not seeing the analogies, I'm demanding that we take the analogous actions that earned the respect of even bigots.

And contrary to your suggestion, what succeeded in the civil rights movement was not at all the top-down, centralized, MLK as HNIC approach.

One of the aspects we can gain by copying better is the diversity of organizations and organizers and activists that made one movement with narrow goals from a broad coalition of people and tactics.

But wait, there's more!

---

by: PhoenixRising @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 23:13:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Cultural Appropriation

So when someone makes a rough analogy of the struggles they face with another civil rights struggle, instead of focusing in on the differences, why don't you open your eyes to the similarities as there are many.

I'm well aware of those similarities. I also know that for many black folks, hearing white guys like Andrew Sullivan say "our struggle is just like the civil rights movement" is incredibly off-putting. It comes across as cultural appropriation, and reinforces the idea that the gay community is a) white and b) only cares about people of color when trying to make that comparison.  

---

by: Darkrose @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 16:19:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Feedback is good

Thank you for what you said. Feedback is what I like to hear. And I respect your opinion. I just don't like it when we turn on each other in an ugly fashion.

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 19:41:28 PM CST

Another Money Target Besides LDS

The Mormon church was not the only BIG contributor to the PRO-8 campaign. There is a fellow named Howard Ahmanson Jr. who has very deep pockets and is very anti-gay. I have read that he believes he has a mission from God to stop gay marriage, fight evolution, and defeat "liberal" churches. I understand that he likes to stay out of the limelight. Can we try to shine a few mega-watts on him? Can we find out more about him and his wife, Roberta, in order to reduce his influence? How about some publicity - anything legal to make his smug life less comfortable?  

---

by: Cat Herder @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:36:52 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Maybe what you've mentioned can be looked at by younger queers, it will be their fight

I want to focus on as G*D DAMN a brutal BACKLASH against the LDS church, as I can possibly imagine. They need to know F*CKING in another state's marriage laws, and depriving MILLIONS of people of their human rights AIN'T FREE.
It comes with blowback, that park city and Alta ski resorts, and other major Utah tourism can start feeling YESTERDAY. Utah film festivals can feel our anger as well.
The pigs who sent out those BLACKMAIL letters to No on Prop 8 backers, I want them prosecuted as a FELONS, and let them each get 4 yr prison terms for EACH LETTER sent out.
African American conservative churches and hombigotted rappers, I suggest you stay out of the path of gays too.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 21:52:48 PM CST

African American conservative churches?

Are you kidding me with this?  All day long I've heard questionable numbers about the racial breakdown of Yes on 8 voting.  But it isn't about race, it is about evangelical religious nutjobs.  When you reduce it to African American conservative churches and rappers, you are not helping things.  

---

by: ChristopherM @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 22:57:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

i quoted this yesterday from Andrew Sullivan

"Every ethnic group supported marriage equality, except African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly against extending to gay people the civil rights once denied them: a staggering 69 - 31 percent African-American margin against marriage equality. That's worse than even I expected. Whites, on the other hand, clearly rejected discrimination: 55 to 45 percent. Latinos were evenly split. "

You and I both know that homobigots in Hip Hop community and Conservative Black churches is where the MOST virulant hostility and hatred towards LGBTs is located in the African American community...so cut the CR*P!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 01:04:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Like it or not

PeteyPornPig does have a good point - although many of the most vocal opponents of LGBT rights in the UK are White, the groups that are most vocal and hateful aren't the Anglicans, Presbyterians or Catholics (the biggest Christian groups) but Black African & Caribbean Christians. Distaste for the brand of homophobia found in predominantly Black churches is even driving some White and mixed churches here to leave the Evangelical Alliance, the UK's largest Evangelical lobby group.

However while he does make valid points I don't agree with PPP's response: there are very few situations where is is wise to respond to hate and anger with yet more hate and anger - it alienates people and hardens hearts against us, so is massively counter-productive.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

---

by: tavdy79 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 04:10:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Excuse me?

although many of the most vocal opponents of LGBT rights in the UK are White, the groups that are most vocal and hateful aren't the Anglicans, Presbyterians or Catholics

Knights of Columbus?

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:26:04 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Salt Lake City?

Maybe it's just because it's been a while, but I don't remember ever seeing a black face in the LDS first presidency, or quorums of the twelve or seventy. Mormons are just as racist as they are misogynists and homobigots. The darkest Mormon faces in the Yes on 8 rallies were Samoans.

Want to drive a wedge in the anti-gay money machine? Pit the evangelicals against the Mormons. Exploit their differences. Let them rip each other to shreds. Tear the Mormon support away from anti-gay bigotry by destroying them from the inside. We don't need door-knocking campaigns only in states with upcoming actions, we need it in Utah. Shoot, SLC is the midwest's gay mecca. Mobilize there! Whey weren't more of us in Utah stepping up at the grassroots level? I'm more than happy to help, and my now-supportive mom is, too. She was horrified by this last election cycle.

Certainly here in Hawaii the Mormon church is where the anti-gay money is, as evidenced by its actions in 1997-98 when that horrible amendment passed. Unfortunately, the ConCon question on the ballot this week was voted down, so no chance of repealing the amendment just yet.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:23:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

there are a number of problems with this

The claim is palpably untrue based on the exit poll.  "Latinos" and "Other" both supported the ban as well, though by much smaller margins.

but regardless, why break it down exclusively by race and only in one state? for example, why did union voters, by a small margin, support Prop 8?  Why are we not fixating on age and party affiliation and ideology and whether a person is born again or not?  Why rely on an exit poll to construct a narrative when we can take a little more time and figure out what actually happened?  And even if all  that you're saying is true, why not consider the big picture and then look  at possible causes to figure out a strategy?

further, why use an artificially constructed small sample like an exit poll to make broad claims? The data on which all of the prop 8 claims are being based is a sample of 242 Black people in california.  And from that we conclude that Black people are homophobic?  I have no doubt there are homophobic institutions in Black  communities - just like there are in mine ;)  What efforts were made to reach out to Black communities?  To Asian communities?  To Latino communities?  Apparently few according to the Nation article.

I say all this as a queer person of color who is tired of being forced by people on both sides, to say nothing of people completely outside of the picture, to define myself, to "choose" sides, or anything like that.   i agree with people based on their politics, and where i can pull people in on their identity (which is often but not always linked) i will do that - including intersectionality as an "identity" of itself.  Everyone always talks about Audre Lorde, but very few people heed her words.

I didn't choose to prioritize gay marriage as the top agenda item, nor did I choose the strategy of judicial fiat, nor did I decide that racism and classism in the lgbt community should be ignored.  So who did?  Because I know that short of waiting 10 years for the old people to die and another generation of gay friendly voters, the only way things will happen is if we build a social justice movement, and the process by which gay marriage has emerged to the top of the lgbt agenda reflects the power dynamics of the lgbt community.  Ultlimately, this comes down to introspection on ALL sides, followed by some strategizing and tactical thinking for a more broadly based social justice movement than single issue campaigns.

That's not PC - that's practical.

---

by: dr anonymous @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 15:46:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Let's get to work, then

Dr. A,

As to why the marriage item was the top of the agenda, I think that boils down to the idea that a person's validity is defined by his/her relationships. When you can invalidate a person's relationships and family, you invalidate that person as a human being. You separate them from the rest of humanity. That's the real reason (white, middle-class) christians don't want us to have marriage rights. By declaring us as invalid human beings, they maintain their monopoly on "truth." It means that they can keep viewing us as subhuman, and viewing themselves as "chosen". It reinforces their superiority over someone.

Social justice it is. I'm finally in a position to help, and have a few ideas. Let me work my connections here in Hawaii and see what I can pull out of my left ear.


God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 18:50:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Re: The Day After

I don't feel like hearing the stuff us GLBT did wrong. You know what...Black people need to recognize the deep seated bigotry that runs through their souls. They weren't the only one's who supported this initiative, but that does not let them off the hook. So sorry if I am not into hearing some P.C. bull right now. The fact is....we are a small, hated minority that the majority at large knows can push around. Sadly African Americans in general have decided to join in the beat down.  

---

by: Dave @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 21:55:20 PM CST

Surely you're not saying that GLBT people and black people are mutually exclusive, right?

Because THAT is exactly where a lot of the problems are - people in general like to think in "us and them" terms, instead of Venn diagrams.

Speaking as a triple minority (yay?) that just sucks all the way around.

But saying that there are arguments/movement structures that work and those that don't isn't being P.C., it's being proactive for the next round of battle.

---

by: lyonside @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 22:27:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Non-white gays need to start standing up for themselves where they live

As a white, middle-class lesbian, it is highly unlikely I will ever convince a middle-aged straight black christian woman of ANYTHING, let alone that I deserve civil rights. If black LGBT people want support from their own communities, they need to become visible there. I've been working hard in the defense community to convince people of the evils of DADT, because that is where I live and will have the most effect. Black queers do themselves no favors when they remain invisible and their community paints LGBT people as a "white problem" because they refuse to acknowledge their own queer sons and daughters.

On the same meme, I will not likely have any positive effect convincing Asian-Pacific Islanders here in Hawaii that gay people exist. For them, the only gay people in Hawaii are the white tourists hanging out at Hulas. Even the lesbian locals I paddle with won't call themselves lesbians. Like America's black communities, they see LGBT people and activism as a "white problem." This last June I saw almost no local faces at our teeny little Pride.

If LGBT people of color - ANY COLOR - want civil rights, they need to start standing up for themselves, becoming visible, and showing their own communities that queer does not equal a "white problem." I'll be happy to support, but as an outsider, I will not be able to change minds and hearts. That has to come from within. Currently, it isn't.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:32:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

okay

1. I do.
2. What are you giving me in return?

---

by: dr anonymous @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 15:46:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Okay Keori

Keori

You talk as if we are timid and hidden. That is not the case. Look at the cover of the Advocate or the images that lgbts choose to embrace. How many lgbt black faces do you see?

We lgbts of color are here and visible, but the community does not acknowledge us yet.  

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 17:29:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

For Dr. Anonymous and The Author

Dr A:

1. Thank you. Could you please talk about your experiences so I, as a white middle-class lesbian, can understand it a bit better?
2. In return, I will work harder to stand up for both of us to all the non-white people in the military that I know. I will not let my white skin be a deterrant. There are a lot of POC in these circles, and since that is where I live and where I am a leader (as a vet and now a civilian professional), that is where my voice will have the most effect. I'll work on POC from my side, you work from yours. We both start from our respective common grounds and work our way in. I will even take it a step further and convince these folks to engage their families and peers "back home".

A friend of mine whose mother is originally from Mexico, now living in CA, convinced them to vote No by showing them exactly what they had to fear from me - nothing. They heard all about me, they saw pictures of me and my biracial gf. They heard about the things we all do together, just being human. My friend quoted a lot of the Gospels, talking about loving one another. We all made an effort to find our common ground. As a result, they came to see two human beings instead of a scary, anonymous monster. I promise to intensify such efforts in my sphere of influence.

Author,

I can't explain the racism in the LGBT community. Heck, I don't even read the Advocate. I can honestly say that after ten years of military service, and more years of living in Hawaii where I'm a racial (if not soci-economic) minority, I don't even see colors anymore. What can I do as one person to step up my efforts to erase racism in general, and our community in particular? What works? What techniques have succeeded in the short and long term for you?

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 18:38:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

White gays and lesbians need to address our own racial issues

first, because it's the right thing to do, but it is also a political necessity to understand where the struggle for glbt rights fits in the wider context of the ongoing efforts to 'create a more perfect union'.  

Last night I had an experience reminiscent of what PhoenixRising describes.  Another white gay man at the election party I attended commented that, "Now that Obama's won, we have the perfect response to any minority who whines about discrimination."

It was a challenge to not just call him an asshole and walk away. Instead I looked him in the eye and said that I disagreed, continuing that Obama's election is an important step forward but there is still a lot of institutional racism to deal with.  He was a bit surprised and backed down, but he's a reminder that there is still a long, long way to go.

In other news, it's small consolation if when we're losing in California, but it's worth noting that voters in King County, Washington State (Seattle and environs), overwhelmingly approved an amendment to our County Charter adding "disability, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression" to the county's non-discrimination policy and requires contracts with vendors adhere to the same non-discrimination requirements.

The charter amendment passed in a public vote with 71% in favor. So there is hope for the battles ahead.

---

by: Smartypants @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 21:55:38 PM CST

71%

is a great outcome.  but remember, only people in king county voted on it, and king county is the liberal stronghold of the state.  if this had been on a statewide ballot, it may well have failed.  so although i'm happy it passed, i don't take that margin as a sign of any gains.  in fact, in king county, i wonder why the percentage wasn't greater.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

---

by: Lurleen @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 23:02:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sorry, but I think it's time to get really active

and in the streets. One need only to look at the brave and heroic ACT-UP participants. Many of them were healthy and many of them were already sick. They were spat on, ridiculed, humiliated and arrested by cops wearing gloves. None of that mattered. What mattered was they needed change and they needed it now. I'm not saying that the devastation of AIDS is equivalent to marriage rights, but haven't we had just about enough of this bullshit already? Everybody, gay, straight old or young should be OUTRAGED by this. And those people who voted for the ban SHAME!!!

---

by: Donica @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 23:53:18 PM CST

How very provincial!

Sir, you need to read about Gandhi and the Indian Independence Movement.

Do you really think that the American Civil Rights Movement was solely the invention of African-Americans?

Are you honestly suggesting that visibility, non-violent rallies, civil disobedience and marches are the exclusive hallmark of African-Americans?

There is no such thing as "African-American civil rights movement terminology" -- Gandhi was the pioneer of mass civil disobedience and all of the techniques and terminology used by American Civil Rights leaders.

Called "Satyagraha" Gandhi's organized protests resulted in Indian independence from Britain and inspired most modern civil rights movements around the world -- including the Civil Rights Movement in the United States.

African-Americans DO NOT own the concept of civil rights. They borrowed greatly from Gandhi and the LGBT community is wise to do the same.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 00:03:53 AM CST

Not only did the African American community co-opt Gandhi's methods

The man who studied them and brought those methods to America was gay.  

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #

---

by: MileHighDawg @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 01:20:10 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That's true

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:32:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Adopted

Not co-opted.

Two very different actions.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 19:17:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A Portion of the Black Community

who were part of MLK's movement did yes, but not every Black person at that time. And not Malcolm X. Don't oversimplify this because you wish to place to blame. Not without acknowledging the benefits you enjoy from white supremacy.

---

by: heartsandflowers @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:05:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I dunno what The Author is suggesting

but I'm suggesting, as you note below, that we will have to be willing to DO the painful and uncomfortable activities involved in a civil rights movement if we hope to prevail.

I think his point, though, was that we have failed to communicate the essence of what we're asking for and that more talking about 'civil rights' is not going to do the job.

But wait, there's more!

---

by: PhoenixRising @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:10:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

not comparing

Now that California has decided to divide its constitutional rights between heterosexuals (full citizenship) and homosexuals (partial citizenship) why should I have to pay full state taxes?

---

by: nils @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 00:26:45 AM CST

You shouldn't pay...

...if you truly KNOW you already deserve these rights...and you BELIEVE taxation without representation is unconstitutional...and you DEMAND that your most beloved FAMILY's security is NOT something to be VOTED on.

Decades MORE of Psychological Abuse? - OR - Stonewall.  Nationwide.  NOW!

---

by: John Bisceglia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 03:11:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

When you say "they"

You do mean, the Democratic Party, also, right?

I'm starting to think that the first thing Obama should handle isn't Iraq, it isn't the economy, it isn't rebuilding the military.  The Democratic Party wants us gone, joining with the Republicans.  Fine.  Secure for us right of emigration without question or quota to a country that will take us.  

We're smart, we're talented, we're compassionate.  All of us together would be a net positive to any country willing to take us in.  

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #

---

by: MileHighDawg @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 01:12:55 AM CST

Why should need to beg for my rights?

I'm so tried having to sweet talk my way to be considered an equal. I understand they do not like us/understand us/want us around but I'm not going away quietly.

Being "nice" is not working.

Maybe it's time to literally fill up the jails/courts.

Dena  


Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

---

by: Denabeth @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 01:44:48 AM CST

Why should I*

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

---

by: Denabeth @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 01:46:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

NOT READY TO PLAY NICE.

Perhaps the YES-to-HATE folks need to experience some of the pain, trauma, and suffering we experience as a result of their legal assault on our FAMILIES.  Oh no...I'm not suggesting ______ (removed by FBI), but I am reminding us of our incredible creativity we have to utilize in counter-protests.....I particularly like the idea of having a Mormon's wedding crashed or punk'd:

The pianist who suddenly goes into a rendition of WE SHALL OVERCOME during the bridal march as his page-turner (lover) deep-kisses him.

The photographer who "accidentally" leaves all pics out of focus.

The baker who "accidentally" spills garlic in the wedding cake.

The protestors dressed as circus clowns who suddenly appear as the bride and groom exit the church.

Oh - I could go on, but then I'd just seem EVIL.  

Decades MORE of Psychological Abuse? - OR - Stonewall.  Nationwide.  NOW!

---

by: John Bisceglia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 03:15:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I was thinking civil disobedience

Non-violent/non-destructive actions (with media in tow)

Maybe 100 or so folk sitting down in the middle of a major thoroughfare in your city.

Sit-In's at city/county clerks offices were marriage licenses are issued.

I'm sure there are other ways but I am too tired to think of them right now.

Dena

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

---

by: Denabeth @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:25:46 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Focusing on one portion kinda proves my point

My mention about the African-American civil rights movement was only a portion of my column. But I see that so many of us is focusing on it.

What about the portion I said about studying the religious right. Someone made a good comment on one of my sites:

"So, where is the think tank that will analyze the h8rs rhetoric and strategy? That will study the best way to reach the public through the min-field of in-built prejudices and cast equality as the right thing to do? That will put out talking points and do/don't lists for LGBT members when public speaking (or even public behaving  . . . Where are the tools we need to be able to formulate correct strategy and correct actions?

Where is the clearinghouse that collects analyzes and disseminates any and all acts of discrimination or violence against any members of the lgbT community (let's not forget the T -- hetero-cissexual society says they're super-homo, so lgbT are stuck with them.)"

Can we address that point for a second?

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:31:07 AM CST

ONE way to Progress is to defeat bigoted church denominations....

Especially for those who are believers and feel lost from their own church, and want to be able to bring their children up with a group of like-minded people,  join and support both verbally and FINANCIALLY  the Christians deonominations that do support GLBT families.  Stengthen them, empower them SHOW THEM off to people who are still in the bigoted churches. Brag, make noise about how proud you are to be in an inclusive church.   Thus, gays both blacks need to COME OUT and demand to be accepted and heard in their churches..or just loudly quit and join a supportive one.

Actually, that is another facet for winning and the local level. Re-emphasize that people need to COME OUT, be seen be heard by friends, family, coworkers...be sure that local PFLAG's are stong enough to support community members who want to come out. WORK very hard to get the Hate Crime Bill and a fully inclusive ENDA passed so that the community is strengthened in its ability to defend itself and support itself.  We have eleven months to the next COMING OUT DAY...lets make it SPECIAL!

LOT to do! Lots can be done...if we now have a mulit-racial President we can continue to demand a multi-gendered society.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

---

by: Orion45 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:03:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I guess I don't know enough...

But I'm not sure what you're suggesting, Pam.

Do we not already have think tanks? NGLTF?

What's difficult for me is to read through those groups. The lies, the hate.

If truth is not a counter for that, then what is?

For example, why not produce a pamphlet titled, Why are you Listening to Mormons? that goes through and documents their atrocious record on the truth? From their dogma to their treatment of blacks to the electro-shock therapy they use on gays...

---

by: momotaro @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:02:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It Doesn't Work

It doesn't matter if there are parallels between the two struggles.  Pointing out similarities has proven to be an ineffective way to reach religious folks.  It may seem rational to us, but it doesn't to the people who need their hearts changed. And the tools we use are for reaching them, not us.

Plus, it's 2008 and what worked half a century ago may not work now anyway.  I agree with the author and others here.  It's time to use our unique gifts and our creativity, our humor, our money and our organizations to blow the socks off of people.    

---

by: Troy @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:47:40 AM CST

What worked half a century ago may not work now anyway...

Yes. It would work.

But, most LGBT folks are not willing to do sit-ins and march in the streets.

They have gone back into cosy suburban closets and have allowed the movement to be corportized by the HRC.

We aren't visible. That's why we're losing.

We aren't taking chances. That's why we're losing.

We aren't confronting those who hate us face-to-face. That's why we're losing.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:30:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

About sit-ins...

The laws are different now than in the 60's or even the late 70's early 80's anit-nuke times.

Conspiracy and obstruction charges are easy to do... so much depends on the police force where protests are taking place...
ie. last night in West Hollywood...there were several spontaneous marches which dispersed through the streets after a rally...but they kept moving, and supposedly they did whatever the police asked...there was cooperation.

Now, unless it is last resort...sit-ins will just get ya all hauled off to jail before the news cameras get there.  Think the Equality Ride this year verses last...if a college doesn't want the Soulriders there, they are arrested immediately.  

One has to be very creative with non-violent actions.  But it is certainly possible...like the "spontaneous" street rally which happened last night.

Protests out infront of hateful churches I would like to see...they will surely look bad and there's a list of over  200 of them on the Protect Marriage site just for starters.

---

by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:11:19 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sit-ins at high-profile weddings

We should organize sit-ins at high-profile weddings.

The press and photographers will already be there.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:23:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A couple of suggestions ...

Where is the clearinghouse that collects analyzes and disseminates any and all acts of discrimination or violence against any members of the lgbT community (let's not forget the T -- hetero-cissexual society says they're super-homo, so lgbT are stuck with them.)"

It would be easy enough to start this up on a wiki -- the Clinton Attacks Obama wiki and Voter Suppression Wiki are two good examples.  

Also, since younger voters are in general far more supportive of LGBTAIQ rights, it's a great opportunity for reaching them via social network-based activism.  


jon

---

by: jonpincus @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:26:38 AM CST

My Turn

Re: Studying the Religious Reich.  I do.  I blog about them a lot.  So does Box Turtle Bulletin.  It is real easy to keep on top of these fellows.

Re: Blacks and LGBT - yes, we are very different.  However the tactics used then may still be useful now.  The above poster is correct - people of color must come out.  It is in coming out that most change is made.

Re: 1960's Civil Rights Movement - Yes it took the non-violent activities of Dr. King - that landed his ass in jail a lot!  But I am convinced that the civil rights progress of the 60's also required the Black Panthers, the riots in Watts, Detroit etc.  The violent "We want our rights NOW" folks were as necessary as Dr King and his message.

THEY ALL WENT TO JAIL TO GET THEIR RIGHTS.  ALL THE BLACK LEADERS.

Are you willing to get a rap sheet?  Are you willing to fill in the "Yes I have been convicted of a crime" box on future job applications?  Are you?  I am utterly convinced that we will NOT get our rights in the USA until LARGE numbers of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transexual and straight people are willing to clog the court docket and the jails with their bodies.  From non-violent protests. Or (censored for Matt Barber who is monitoring these discussions)

I have been arrested for worker rights, never for LGBT rights.  I have never been asked to get arrested for LGBT rights.

Re: research of LGBT victims.  Some folks have a wonderful website that does just that day in and day out.  Real heroes.  There url is on my blog.

Re: ANGER - yes I am angry, as angry as you

BUT REMEMBER THIS.  NINE YEARS AGO, A MERE NINE YEARS AGO, 61% VOTED AGAINST CALIFORNIA'S LGBT MARRIAGE EQUALITY.  THIS WEEK ONLY 52% DID AND IT TOOK 35 MILLION DOLLARS AND ALOT OF LIES TO GET THAT MANY VOTES.  THAT IS A HUGE CHANGE!  IF WE JUST KEEP DOING WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE WILL EVENTUALLY WIN AT THIS RATE.

The Christionists know this.  It is on their blogs.  The Religious Reich knows this too.  They also expect the Court to nullify Prop 8.  They are prepared for it.  Ho Hum is their attitude.

That's all I have for now - good discussion.

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

---

by: Dagon @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 13:45:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Non-violence

Reading the history of the 60s in Nixonland and elsewhere (and having studied the 60s in grad school), it seems that Kennedy and LBJ moved things forward more in response to non-violent protest that sometimes provoked violence from the other side.  Violence produced fear, swept Nixon into power and stoked the politics of resentment which he capitalized on.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 19:22:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thinking Hard

I think that this discussion is great, but we need to keep a few facts in mind.

1) Even if every single black voter said no to Prop 8, it still would have passed.  The math itself tells us that blacks, by themselves, are not responsible for Prop 8 passing.  

The media has given us this statistic of 70/30 and is encouraging people to draw their own conclusion that "black homophobia" (whatever that is, I don't think homophobia has a color) is to blame.  This simply isn't true.  

2) Given (1), we need to think about building coalitions in a positive way, not in a "they are oppressors now" sort of way.  We need to build coalitions.  Prop 8 supporters could have made inroads to many communities (in my mind, inroads to the Asian, Black and Hispanic communities could have made the (collective) difference.  This measure could have been defeated by reaching out to ALL communities of color, getting as many supporters as we could.

3) Prop 8 could have been defeated with greater outreach to all POC communities.  It is not an issue of black and gay-- black support (even total support) would not be enough.  We need all of the support we can get.

---

by: kevjack @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 15:37:15 PM CST

just to approach this analytically

i think broadly the relevant distinction is between a group based struggle and an individual based struggle (or you could put this as class/caste/race or patriarchy/heteronomrativity).  And of course there are specifics.  So yeah, we should collectively and individually and in beteen pay attention to what our situations are and what language we present them in,  but speaking in the language of Black civil rights is useful in particular contexts.  In other contexts, not so much.

---

by: dr anonymous @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 15:52:47 PM CST

Not playing nice

When someone thinks they are permitted to step on MY THROAT, and there won't be retaliation

they are sadly M_I_S_T_A_K_E_N

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 18:13:48 PM CST

Yes

I feel the same way Petey.  Been to jail before?  Willing to go for LGBT full rights? Or have you something else in mind?

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

---

by: Dagon @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:00:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I've never been jailed

I have been demonstating since I was 14yo at moratoriums against Viet Nam, I was tear gassed on the commons of the University of MN when buildings were being taken over, trying to get to my sister-in law working as a secretary in the Admissions office while she was in her late stages of pregnancy with my first nephew. Some of my heroes were the earliest ACT UP demonstrators who dropped themselves from their wheelchairs all 70 lbs of them covered with lesions onto federal Court steps...and still they allowed themselves to be arrested where they'd be denied the pawltry drugs even available then. The Lesbians in ACT UP who were humiliated with strip searches none of the men arrested were subjected to.
I'm at a stage of life both by virtue of age and late stages of AIDS, little could be done to me by authorities.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:11:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A Challenge to Pam

Pam,

The Gay Civil Rights Movement is often compared to the Black Civil Rights Movement because they both share root causes: ignorance, fear and unjust legislation.

For you to feel that it is your task to remind the rest of us that black people suffered more during their battle for equality is a bit arrogant don't you think? No one owns the language of protest, dissent, passion, justice. No one group even owns the history of specific battles for equality. We collectively own it. To point out that one specific group might have suffered more is petty and unhelpful and, well, shallow.

The mainstream black community has a homophobia problem. It is primarily the task of the mainstream black community to confront their own particular form of stupidity and educate themselves about their bizarre hypocritical ironic support of Prop 8, over 70% support. I believe in the potential of the black community to overcome their own bigotry toward gay people. I believe not in MY power as merely a white gay man (who dares to use language from the Black Civil Rights Movement) to educate them about inequality and idiotic supremacist ideologies but in THEIR OWN power to educate themselves. Yes they can!

As others have pointed out, racism within the gay community is far less a problem than homophobia within the mainstream black community.

No one minority group owns the vocabulary of injustice.  

---

by: Patrickometry @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:12:12 PM CST

Now hold up Patrick

In all fairness, your last statement (racism vs. homophobia) is a matter of opinion.

As a black man, I have seen more racism because I am black in the lgbt community than homophobia in the black community.

I think in the black community, there is a lot of ignorance that can be combatted. My experiences as an open gay man in the black community has been one of, if not acceptance, a degree of respect because I am honest about my sexuality.

In the gay community, I have had many ugly experiences. I had one older white gay man come up to me and read me the riot act for daring to support a black pride (which is only created to give lgbts of color visibility). He said I was dividing the community.

I caught this same older gay man at a later time enjoying a Shirley Q. Liquor (the gay commedian who appears in black face) album to the point where he knew the words of his routine.

What I am saying is that while there are similarities, there should be some education and respect in terms of not only how we are similar as groups but how we are different. Neither group has the right to take things for granted. Black Americans do not own the patent on suffering and struggling for rights but at the same time, a gay man who earns say $50,000 a year and cannot marry his partner is a terrible thing. But I don't think its right for him to compare his situation to a sharecropper who was shot out of her home or brutally beaten in jail simply because she tried to register to vote.

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:43:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Give us a break

I'm gay and I don't make even half of $50,000.

That I demand equality under the law isn't a matter of wishing for a privilege or a perk as you seem to imply; rather, the fight for equality under the law for gay people is inspired by the suicides of gay youth who feel worthless DUE TO HOMOPHOBIA and it's inspired by the violence done to gay people who are preyed upon by ANTI-GAY SUPREMACISTS. The movement for marriage rights for gay people is but one facet of the Gay Civil Rights Movement.

But let me play this bizarre competition regarding which group suffers more: I would dare say that the pain felt by a gay teen who kills himself because of homophobia or the pain of Matthew Shephard as his skull was beaten in and as he hung from a fence alone.. I'd say that pain can compete with anything you dish out. So please stop the stupid competition over which group suffers more. It's so idiotic and unhelpful and has no importance whatsoever to the cause of the Gay Civil Rights Movement.

FACT: over 70% of African Americans voted in favor of Proposition 8, more than any other group. That's a problem for the mainstream black community in California to confront and fix. Racism and homphobia will always exist. But let's have some perspective: a black man was just elected President while the second-class status of gay citizens was enshrined in legislation all across this country.

No one minority group owns the vocabulary of injustice.  

---

by: Patrickometry @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 21:02:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

OFFS - ENOUGH with the race stats - they go both ways...

>over 70% of African Americans voted in favor of Proposition 8,

And African-Americans made up 10% of the vote for Prop 8, which was less than the overall voting populace (not everyone who votes hits every button, after all. My mother didn't vote for president this year, just the local and state offices).

What about the other 90%?

Racialicious has an interesting breakdown here regarding race, the California vote, and the (mis)information campaign targeting non-white communities:
http://www.racialicious.com/20...

---

by: lyonside @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:01:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Huh?

The two movements are very different.  Since it seems that mainstream gay organizations are all about us accepting our differences why don't they accept the fact that the Black Civil Rights Movement (which is MUCH bigger than something that happened in the 1960s) and the Gay Rights Movements are different?  

Have you ever considered that comparing the two angers many blacks?  Oppression is very different from repression, afterall.  Hence, they see gays as arrogant and ignorant and refuse to support their causes.  Hmmm...the venom I have seen from white gays in the past few days certainly supports that notion.

I also love it that these white gays complain that "the black gay community has a homophobia problem" when black elected officials (who are elected primarily by blacks) are the most supportive of gay causes.  Why is this fact (the Congressional Black Caucus has the highest rating from the HRC, for example) never talked about?  It seems odd that these deeply homophobic people continually vote for the most progressive leaders on gay issues.  I honestly think it is because white gays want to create the boogeyman of "black homophobia" to mask their racist claims that blacks are backwards ignorants.  

Exhibit A: The post above.

---

by: kevjack @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 00:25:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

kevjack take a breath

"racist claims that blacks are backwards ignorants" ???

Being heart broken that while celebrating the awesome Obama win, 70% of the straight voting black community in California weren't able to see past their own anti-gay prejudices, that's not racist. Feeling dumbfounded that while rejoicing at the historic Obama vicotry, 70% of the straight voting black community chose not to see the real connections between anti-gay legislation couched in supremacist phrases like "sanctity of marriage" and anti-miscegenation legislation couched in supremacist phrases like "purity of race", that's not racist.

No one as far as I know is laying the blame for Prop 8 passage solely at the feet of straight black Californians, but the black community bares some responsibility. with responsibility comes the power to change. That's important to call out and take ownership of.

Playing the racist card is unintelligent and paranoid. That's not what's going on. FYI: there really is a black community and culture and it's perfectly reasonable to critique it and hold it responsible for its actions. Gay people, black or white, are not racists for doing so. Give us all a break with the foolish idiotic paranoia.


No one minority group owns the vocabulary of injustice.  

---

by: Patrickometry @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 17:56:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]