The religious right promises more amendments, do we have a plan?

What to do now...

I've always thought the best defense is a good offense.  Why not start ballot initiatives that allow same sex marriage.  I may be naive but wouldn't more people support a Marriage Protection Amendment that included all people?  

---

by: ol&p @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:51:43 AM CST

Do this, and do it on the cheap

Use blogs, twitter, social networking to drum up support.

Make them use their cash to fight us. Make them spend, spend, spend until they can spend no more.

---

by: cindik @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:23:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

No...

I may be naive but wouldn't more people support a Marriage Protection Amendment that included all people?

I doubt it--actually it's usually better to be on the "No" side of the proposition since there are many "constitutionalists" who don't want to amend a constitution if they can help it. We (allegedly) benefitted from this in Calif among those who said "I don't really support same-sex marriage, but I don't want to amend the constitution to ban it".

It would be an even harder battle to convince people to vote FOR us.

---

by: kmpintj @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:11:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hit them where it hurts

ONE of the courses of action we need to begin taking is to hit them where it hurts; i.e., their pocket book.  

Since religious institutions have decided to fully inject themselves into the politics of this country, they are effectively giving up their rights to exist in a tax free status.

For every amendment they try to get on the ballot in any particular state, we have to propose and elevate an amendment which effectively revokes their status as a tax-free entity.

Then, not only will they have to fund the drive to promote their own amendment, they will also be forced to fund a drive to defeat our amendment.

In effect, we do everything we can to bankrupt them, and drain their contributors to the point that the contributors are no longer willing to fund such hate filled causes.

Greg

---

by: photoglh @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:00:16 AM CST

No amendment needed

Laws regarding tax-exempt status are already on the books. All that needs to happen is for those laws to be enforced. A sympathetic state investigator or attorney could have those groups in court and spending money defending themselves - or paying back taxes.

---

by: Kesnit @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:34:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

One way....

Hit these churches with things that are common with the public and not only to gays.  Issues like the ways they collect money.  

---

by: Wes @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:24:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I have to agree

I go to a PC-USA church (in NoVA) that has been fairly accepting of me and my partner. Or so I thought until they began discussing the recent vote in the General Assembly to allow all members to be eligible for church leadership positions.

The folks at the meeting seemed peeved that they even had to consider GLBT people at all, actually claimed the changes to the standards were NOT about GLBT people.

I am considering withholding my money. I may even consider finding a new church.

---

by: SharonB @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:52:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think tuesday made it clear.....

While our community  has come a long way, we still have a lot of work to do. I think for one, playing the blame game will get us nowhere. We have seen the numbers and need to acknowledge the work that needs to done. I think for one, we need to start a petition to ensure that LGBT are counted in the census and our relationships are counted as well. At this point our numbers are deniable. As for dealing with the likes of Dobson, we need to beat them at their own game. We need to become just as visible. We should show them what it feels like to be hated for their mere presence. I think we should start protesting them at their churches. Have visible and very vocal boycotts in front of company's that support anti lgbt issues. I also think different things will work in different parts of the country. We need a grassroots effort. If that means having local as well as national meetings via chat rooms to organize and share ideas/successes/failures then so be it. While HRC and Equality (fill in your state) are doing work on our issues, I think they exclude participation by the cost of their Galas and the fact they are in larger city's. We need to show this country that we are here in large numbers, and we are not going away. If company's want our disposable income then they must earn it. We can't afford to wait for the next attack to take action.  

...... Next time someone gives you a hard time for being LGBT... just ask them if they are unenlightened...or closeted

---

by: lisabrealty @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:13:06 AM CST

How far did these amendment go ?

  Are they like Michigan where you can't have civil union or partership benefits? Because if can't marriage we need to be able to protect our partners and familys.

---

by: farfarbetter @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:42:00 AM CST

how about ideas,

or a place for them? One thing that would be great is a central repository for grassroots ideas that could lead to proactive plans and action items for taking on the well-organized religious fundamentalists.

I've see anger and disappointment in the comments here in the past few days, but have also seen some ideas starting to come from the froth.  There have been notions of holding politically active religious organizations accountable via taxes.  There have been ideas about supporting, sustaining, and expanding the progressive coalition born in the fight against Prop 8. I've stated that I'd be best suited at face to face outreach with people who believe that they are doing God's will without having an LGBT face or home to complete their pictures.  

It would be great to have a central place for these and other ideas, a place to build from.

There are lost causes, people who will scream select bible passages that fit their homophobia.  I'm not sure they can be reached.  But, as the graphics at this and this page reveal, there are still plenty of otherwise progressive-leaning folks just waiting for a human face to go along with LGBT rights.

Electricity's for light bulbs!

---

by: n8nyc @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:43:31 AM CST

Re: how about ideas

sounds ike a good place for a wiki :-)

jon

---

by: jonpincus @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:56:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

great idea

Would love to get involved in such a beast.  I'm a tad unsure how to though.

Electricity's for light bulbs!

---

by: n8nyc @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:39:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why no million LGBT march on DC?

I've been disappointed over the last 5-6 years that no national level group(s) have coordinated some kind of million LGBT march on Washington.  That could have been the first time those numbers of LBGT and allies came together in one city at one time.  Local, regional and national groups could have had impromptu meetings or planned meetings with agendas and goals.

There would have been instantaneous networking opportunities and the simple psychological benefit of people from across the country coming together for a common goal.

I would have taken off work in a heart-beat and switched to a diet of Ramon noodles, if I had to do it to get there.

---

by: CharlesN @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:43:43 AM CST

won't happen.

Want to know why?

Gay jesus freaks.

Gay Republicans.

exGAYS

former exGAYS.

posers, a few of whom are on this website.

---

by: NG @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:59:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

would happen

I think you are wrong.  Planned properly it would happen.  

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:13:21 AM CST

[ Parent ]

No, I'm right.

All that needs to happen is for an anti-gay or a poser to smear and defame, go all bug eyed or whatever the expression is and that'll send many scurrying back into the closet and there goes your call to action.

Ask Damieon or Alvin.  They know what I'm talking about.

---

by: NG @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:34:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Understand what you are saying but

There are many glbt that are already out of the closet not afraid of being outed as well as their allies - friends, families, etc. who suppport equality.  Not everybody in this country is a bigot.  There are employers for example who support glbt.  This is the kind of DC protest I'm talking about.  

Those who are fear going to such a protest can contribute to the cause in other ways.  There are plenty of other things that will need to be done such as planning, organizing, contributing technical or other professional talents they have, etc.

At some point we will have to go to Washington.

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:10:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Hi. I'm a transsexual Lesbian Jesus freak

I will be there.

Incidentally, my bisexual Jesus freak partner and I were in DC with the Lesbian Avengers to protest Promise Keepers.

---

by: cindik @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:21:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

These people

The freaks you mention and the others have been around all along but we have still made progress or should we have just given up long ago and gotten nowhere?

---

by: Wes @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:29:09 AM CST

[ Parent ]

There've been marches

Charles, you may be too young to have been aware, but there HAVE been Marches on Washington: in 1979, 1987, 1993, and 2000. I attended the last 3, and while they were wonderfully empowering, ultimately their "use" in causing real social change was little, because just imagine trying to coordinate ALL of the many issues the GLBT cmomunity faces in all the different places! You know what they say--the idea of a "gay agenda" is laughable since we can't even get 4 gay people to decide on the same restuarant for dinner! Expand this to the number of involved parties this endeavor would require logistically, each entity then demanding input into the overall "agenda", etc.

In 1993, I think it was, the official "party plank" that we were supposedly marching for was such a kitchen-sink of issues about a paragraph long, that there was no focus nor did anyone of the "foot soldiers" have any idea what they were "officially" marching for.

And, even between 1993 and 2000, I noticed the huge influx of corporate sponsorship, necessary to raise the funds to pull off something of this scale, but really, how seriously will anyone take a March that is sponsored by lube and sex-toy companies?

I'm thrilled to have had 3 of the 4 GLBT "Marches on Washington" under my belt, but I saw the significant loss of the "Grass roots" feeling from each to the next, saw the amount it cost to pull off these events, which most of the participants saw as simply "a huge party" (think a typical Pride march to the Nth degree), and wonder how much the "Movement" actually benefitted from them. That's why after 2000, I believe they said it was futile to expend such resources on this kind of event again.

---

by: kmpintj @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:21:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

First Step

The very first step is to get away from begging for "fairness". That is not a winning strategy.  It has to be an economic message for starters, and make sure it points out a strong message of how it affects them personally.  

People do not vote "fairness".  People vote for themselves, and maybe, for others if they personally are doing well.


Pam,
This movie has been rated PG-13 for sci-fi violence and destruction

---

by: Blonde Pam @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:11:42 AM CST

Fairness doesn't work

If fairness worked and people cared, then our friends, family, and co-workers wouldn't be voting for these amendments.  Bottom line, nobody but us gives a damn.

---

by: callie @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:48:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Don't agree.

Arguing fairness exclusively is a losing strategy, but then sticking to any one argument exclusively is a losing strategy.

When we were working to get our gay rights law passed here, we made a very calculated decision, after lots of discussion, to call ourselves the Pittsburgh Fairness Campaign.  Every time one of us spoke to the media, the point was driven home as we were identified with fairness, and there was no way even conservative media could get around it.  By the same token, our opponents--mostly fundies and the Catholic diocese--were always identified, implicitly if not explicitly, as working against fairness.

This resonated with people here.   Several months into the campaign, polling showed a majority of Pittsburghers were with us.  We got the law passed within two years of first proposing it before city council.  And the then mayor, Sophie Masloff, an orthodox Jew, signed it with no problem. This happened in the city found to be the third most religious in America (after Salt Lake City and Buffalo).  

Again, arguing only fairness would be ineffectual, I think.  It's always a mistake to depend on only one strategy.  But fairness, as a concept, resonates with Americans.  

Americans suffer from an ignorance that is not only colossal, but sacred.  --James Baldwin

---

by: QScribe @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:18:04 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It can. But what exactly did the law say?

This is the most important issue in our movement's future. I'm not nitpicking because I want to argue, but because I think we're at the crossroads.

Fairness worked to get us basic protections. Fairness is going to get us ENDA and an end to DADT. But fairness can't overcome the argument, Gays have everything they need to protect themselves--but they can't have MARRIAGE!

So that's the problem we're facing. In some circles, our leaders have quietly stated that they are indifferent or opposed to marriage advocacy, because they know that the 'fairness' dog won't hunt. Everywhere it's been used as the message for marriage equality, we've lost, so that's a god indicator that we need to stop and think.

One option is unconditional surrender. We can decide that legal equality is not worth fighting for, and instead attempt to push inclusive DP registries.

Another option is to accept that we're in a battle for the hearts of Americans, who are mostly fair-minded people. To win that battle we would need to get serious about appealing to their emotions. For example: We would need to exploit the three kids who were kept from their dying mother by a FL hospital because 'this is an anti-gay state'. Carefully and delicately, that story should be dropped out of helicopters onto church picnics. Etc.

If we're going to fight, we're going to have to get crassly manipulative.

But wait, there's more!

---

by: PhoenixRising @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:54:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

One Win on the Ballot…

In Connecticut, we defeated an effort by the Connecticut Catholic Conference, the Knights of Columbus and the Family Institute of Connecticut; for a Constitutional Convention. Their stated purpose was to amend the Constitution to add ballot initiatives, ban marriage equality (that was just legalized here and will go into affect Nov. 10) and to ban abortions.
Polls indicated that the ballot question would pass by a wide margin forcing a Constitutional Convention, but instead was defeated with 60% voting "No."

---

by: Diana CT @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:15:30 AM CST

Catholics

Interesting point about the Catholics in this election.  There were more Catholics that voted for Obama than didn't.  There is a spit amongts the Catholics and we need to reach out to them.

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:43:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The Final Kill

I agree they smell blood...and they are going for the final "kill".  

---

by: gumdrop @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:19:59 AM CST

Write a Book, make a small movie,

Documenting each ot the yes on 8 tactics, les and deception.  Debunk their Bull Shit with truth.  Document how children in MA are not being hurt and faamilies not being known.  Gather all youtube small movies of couples.  Small written personal stories.

Truth in this War is needed.  Tell our advocacy groups we want our WHOLE community shown for who the G & Ls really are, and don't be ashamed of the Gay men in the community.  We can't lie like they do.  My mom and dad taught me the truth wins.  Show how the religious right is guilty of bearing false witness.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:25:02 AM CST

need to make you-tube movies on how kids in CA

or other states ARE being hurt by these anti-gay initiatives.

That needs to be the Meme: A lack of marriage equality HURTS the children of gay families.

---

by: SharonB @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 15:01:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

In addition to a protest in Washington...

First there needs to be a whole lot of educating going on so people won't fear what they don't understand and know.

We need to march and protest across the country to DEMAND our rights.  There thousands of glbt activist organizations scattered across the United States.  Somehow we need to come together as one.

We should be organizing peaceful protests and marches in every state capital and major city across the united states and demand our rights until we get them.  This is what occurred during the civil rights marches.  People from all walks of life came together.  

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:40:57 AM CST

I made a suggestion like this once to a national org

I proposed this idea to a major org once and got very excited feedback from them, even heard from the head of the org, that they thought it was a great idea and would love for me to assist them with it.

I followed up several times.  Once, I got a nice pat on the head and a "we'll be in touch" comment.  The last time I never heard back from anyone.

Personally, I think this is one of the best ideas ever and would put real faces (neighbors, friends, and family) to the false images the Religious Right project about us.  The only way to change hearts and minds is one person at a time in a very hands-on way.

Right now, it's hard for me to feel to optimistic.  Most people I know have voted for these amendments, if not here then in other states, and I know this knowing they know me and what I'm going through.  So, it's hard to have any faith in humanity right now, but in my heart, I know it's the only way to go.

---

by: callie @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:42:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This doesn't surprise me

We are fragmented within our own ranks.  We have to come together.  Somebody has to take the lead role in organizing this.  Even if it begins with 1 person.  1 person can change the world.  

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:57:35 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I couldn't agree more.

  HRC is the Joe Lieberman of the LGBT community. Time to figure out who to replace them with quickly.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 19:27:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Some ideas

Pam I am glad you, Autumn and The Author have been posting about all this.  
I seriously believe our community first needs to address all the falsehoods that the religious right have been fostering for years and that so many still believe.
I think we need a few psycologists, sociologists and LGBTQ AND allied Christian ministers and apologists to start getting interview time to de-bunk the lies, myths and hate spread over the years.  Most of the "religious" anti-gay right uses the findings of either denouonced Paul Cameron or Peter LaBarbera.  They use about 6 passages out of the Bible out of context as well to convince even more moderate Christians that we are sinful.
I just had a co-worker call a convicted pedophile "gay".  She knows I am gay, and we get along very well, when I called her on it, she said she thought that child molesters were gay and didn't mean anything by it, it was just what she had always heard.
It is about civil rights and equal protection, but those that believe the myths cant or won't hear the message as long as they do.

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

---

by: TruthandLove @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:47:10 AM CST

DOMA repeal the first step

President elect Barack Obama promised
"As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment. But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples - whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage. Unlike Senator Clinton, I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) - a position I have held since before arriving in the U.S. Senate. While some say we should repeal only part of the law, I believe we should get rid of that statute altogether. I will never compromise on my commitment to equal rights for all LGBT Americans. But neither will I close my ears to the voices of those who still need to be convinced. That is the work we must do to move forward together. It is difficult. It is challenging. And it is necessary".

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:50:23 AM CST

Hold Obama Accountable

I don't know where you got this quote.  But a major movement should be made in holing Barach accountable for this statement.  

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:52:43 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Letter to LGBT's on Obama's campaign website

Google - Obama to repeal DOMA.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:00:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I think the wording in the Letter has changed a bit since Feb. 2008...

...which is when the conservative Christian news services noticed it.  But the substance of the letter is still the same and now includes repealing DADT and supporting the Uniting American Families Act.

The current Letter, which was posted on June 7, 2008, is located under the Resources heading on the Obama campaign's LGBT webpage:
http://pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome

If you want allies, you have to be an ally.

---

by: dale @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:38:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Agreed

this is not a state's rights issue this is a human rights issue.  The religious right can not sustain an argument that marriage is for procreation because there is no requirement to procreate (let alone raise any children) to obtain or validate a marriage license and no requirement to raise a child (let alone a biological one) within the confines of a marriage.  The only arguments they have are biblical which is unconstitutional and their lame homosexuals can get married they just have to married people of the opposite sex bs based on their belief that homosexuality, unlike race, is not hardwired or biological.  I say we hone in on the latter to point out that while race/ethnicity can not be changed there are many other things related to "lifestyle choices" that, based on their arguments against teh gay. Let's point out that, if we can discriminate against gays and require them to live a heterosexual lifestyle in order to obtain full rights in this country, we should be able to do the same to others who make lifestyle choices that are different than the "average" American.  Religion is a choice and, since the majority of Americans are so form of "Christian", we should not allow marriages by two parties, neither of which is "Christian".  Like gays who would have to marry someone unlike themselves to be able to enjoy the right of marriage; Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, etc. who wish to get married should have to marry a Christian.  Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, etc. should not be allowed to adopt children as a couple or on their own because they have chosen a lifestyle that is different from most Americans.  

Contrary to your initial reaction, this does not undermine their constitutional right to freedom of religion - they can still live their abnormal lifestyle practice their religion, we just should not have to legally recognize their marriages, acknowledge their existence or otherwise condone their choices by granting them special rights.  I wish to G-d that someone had the balls to get that sort of Amendment to a state constitution on a ballot (especially in a place where it could actually pass or have a close vote).  That would make a lot of people re-think some things

---

by: ol cranky @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:13:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The problem with arguments ...

... is that most Americans don't have the time, inclination, ability, or some combination of these to understand them.  I have watched two anti-marriage amendment fights closely, and in both cases a mob, fed a bunch of sound bites and rhetoric from both sides, went out and voted down equal rights.

When we can make rational people look at the arguments in detail, we win.  When we can't, the mob votes against us.

Maybe what we need is a Court of Human Rights in the U.S.  We have the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. constitution, and various analogues in the state constitutions, but this is not an entirely satisfactory tool.  For one, it requires judges to make interpretations about what due process means - in most cases it means that duly-elected legislators followed the rules and passed a law, so we are forced to show that we deserve 'strict scrutiny'.  For another, it applies only to the laws; the court has no power to compel relief for anything other than a law that discriminates against us, and there are many other forms of discrimination.  What if we had something a court that any citizen could file a complaint to, alleging that he or she was being denied full human rights, that could compel the appropriate legislative and/or executive bodies to take reasonable remedial action?

We'd have a place to have our arguments heard and carefully examined by thoughtful people, and a tool to compel hostile legislative bodies - and here I am thinking of the VA general assembly as an example - to do the right thing and protect us against the tyranny of the majority.

---

by: pgraydon @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:05:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

DOMA compels the acceptance of religious belief

The following is from my (Charles Merrill vs Commissioner Of Internal Revenue) brief filed in the U.S. Tax Court challenging IRS discriminatory tax code based on DOMA denying us 1,138 Federal rights.
Docket No. 3058-08

The purported secular goals of DOMA are nothing more than a sham to cover the true religious purposes of the law.  First, the Judiciary Committee stated that DOMA advances the government's "interest in maintaining and protecting the institution of heterosexual marriage because it (the government) has a deep and abiding interest in encouraging responsible procreation and child-rearing."  However, there was no evidence presented which would support a connection between heterosexual-only marriage and responsible child-rearing practices.  Also, the Committee ignored the real
facts that gay couples do have and raise children and that non-recognition of gay relationships would negatively impact the very children the Committee wanted to protect.  Furthermore, DOMA is vastly under inclusive relative to its alleged goal of defending marriage as an "institution", as the statute does not include any provisions relating to other possible threats, like adultery or the increase in no-fault divorces.  In fact, amendments to DOMA to include these very provisions were soundly defeated.  Such underinclusiveness is highly probative or unconstitutional religious purposes.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:25:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

P.S. married in California

I forgot to say my husband and I are legally married in California and want Federal rights and benefits as heterosexual couples automatically get, even those on death row.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:35:37 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Money

Opponents of Prop 8 were outfunded.  Sad that civil rights is determined by money. Money that could and should have been used for education, feeding the needy, etc.  

Why more celebrities did not support defeating Prop 8 in some fashion still boggles my mind.

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:50:38 AM CST

Reach Out to Young Voters - College Students

This demographic is extremely open minded and voted in unprecedented numbers for Obama.

---

by: Donna @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:56:14 AM CST

An extremely important point ...

There's a natural base of support here, and students and other young voters are getting increasingly good at organizing online and off.

jon

---

by: jonpincus @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:59:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Outlaw straight marriage!

Well, since the California constitution requires equality for all state citizens, and if Prop 8 passes that same constitution would outlaw civil marriage for queers, then a citizen-initiated proposition should go on the very next ballot demanding the removal of civil marriage for straights, and limiting ALL citizens -- gay and straight -- to civil unions. Sauce for the goose, and all that...

Think THAT might get their attention?

"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin

---

by: Nathanial @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:09:40 AM CST

I have thought of it this way...

Civil marriage for all government services.  Religious marriage for churches but they will get nothing without the civil marriage license and the religious marriage is only a piece of meaningless paper.

---

by: Wes @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:45:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Hmmmm

I thought it already worked this way.  A religious marriage ceremony means nothing without the civil govt's piece of paper.  It's just that it doesn't apply to gay couples. :)

---

by: callie @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 13:25:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Nice thought

Ha, nice thought--but that would feed EXACTLY into their hands that we all want to "destroy marriage" in the first place.

In fact, THEY are the ones, of course, who are destryoing (our) marriages and ripping apart (our) families, but they can not, will not, do not see the outright hypocricy in their words.

---

by: kmpintj @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:26:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We have nothing to lose

...for they'll say that anyway. Hell, at the risk of repeating myself, they claim we attack God and civilization every time any of us has the temerity to step out of the closet. They're fighting with everything they have, and we need to do the same.

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

---

by: Switchhttr69 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 23:37:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Get better buy-in from allies

We can't do this alone - there are too few of us.  Our allies have been great, but they need to be motivated to get out and make more allies independent of us.

I also think there needs to be a nationwide pr campaign that includes elements already mentioned above:
1.  show us lgbt's in real-life situations, not in sexualized settings.  We're normal, dammit.  Make that obvious.
2.  pull no punches in detailing how the amtaliban has lied, cheated and blackmailed to get what they want.
3.  we need outspoken clergy at the national level, and NOT unitarian and even better if not UCC.  we need mainline clergy from religions that most americans respect as "real" (sorry UUs, i know you're real, but not in the eyes of the hater sympathisers).
4.  we need a dedicated pool of spokespeople for the press to turn to like they do to dobson, camenker, etc.  they should not be h.r.c people.  to be most legit in the public eye, most of them need to be from organizations where lgbt rights is not the focus.  most need to be heterosexual.
5.  obama MUST be pressured to take a principled stand on the constitution and equal protections, and drop the personal and highly offensive "god is in the mix" crap.  and neither we nor our allies can let him off the hook again with fearful crap like "but he'll never get elected..."  american just elected a black guy named hussein.  him defending the constitution (his sworn duty, btw) will not be a problem if he approaches it without wincing.
6.  someone on another thread mentioned asking tavis smiley to interview pam & terrance.  that is one excellent idea.  

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

---

by: Lurleen @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:23:55 AM CST

pro-active with a can of spray paint

Hey kids!  . . . if I weren't a law-abiding citizen, I'd propose you tag every Catholic and Mormon church in California with a big, fat, decorative legend that reads "Get your tax-exempt bigotry here!"

We'll be legislated into the camps if we don't stand up and start yelling. Act Up got results. You want results? It's time to get confrontational.

The word BIGOT needs to be linked INDELIBLY to anti-gay institutions and individuals. Americans don't like bigots, and they don't like to be thought of as bigots. America needs to understand that those who don't support us are bigots. Period.  

---

by: ekeby @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:42:55 AM CST

not questioning your strategy...

but tactics may need a once-over.

Bigotry got a bad name during the civil rights movement, as black (and white) Americans displayed dignity and agape in the face of ugly, cruel assaults. As months and years of those assaults were displayed to the public, 'bigot' became a slur.

So spray paint may not be the right tool here.

But wait, there's more!

---

by: PhoenixRising @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:59:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Spray Paint on Signs

Held by the children of gay and lesbian parents, that say "Why Do You Hate My Family?"

Held by GLBT adults that say, to Mormons "Do you want the Catholics ruling your life, heretics?"

Held by GLBT adults that say, to Catholics "Do you want pseudo-Christian cults ruling your life?"

Held outside their parking lots on Sunday mornings.  

---

by: CPT_Doom @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:17:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

HERES my plan

Making an EXAMPLE of Utah and the LDS church

  http://img.villagephotos.com/p...

"when they act tough you call their bluff"

RENT

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:40:16 AM CST

one more time

Did prop 8.elimated Civil Union or make partership benefits?
They did in Michigan its a mess for Gay family now? -Mike

---

by: farfarbetter @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:10:29 AM CST

No, Prop 8 elimiated marriage.

If you're not from the US you don't realize that, except for Massechuttes and now Connecicutt, marriage is only for heteros....Until Tuesday, California had marriage equality also.  That was voted down.
There is a whole range of legal relationship recognition policies across the county.  California still has Domestic Partnerships which it had before the State Supreme Court ruled for equality.  Civil unions are in Vermont and New Jersey...what's in a name you ask...very confusing isn't it.

In the US you can get married in a church you don't have to go to the registar.  Religious groups can officiate civil marriages.  That's why so many antigay people say marriage is religious.

Michigan doesn't allow dps, they can only have "dependent" registries, because you know, domestic partnerships are too much like marriage and the state constitution says that's a no no....Watch out Florida, they're coming for your dps now too.

---

by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 13:07:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is why we lost

Time. Energy. Money.
As a recently married gay man, I contributed a lot of each against Prop. 8. I'm sad that we failed to defeat it. But I'm also very angry-- and not just about political campaigns fueled by bigotry, conservative religion, and way too much tax-free money--because I could see it coming like a train wreck.

At the campaign kickoff, I asked Mark Leno personally if they were going to do the liberal-tolerance-equality strategy again, pointing out that it has failed repeatedly. Or, were they going to show actual gay people, actual families, and actual lives. You know: reality. He said that focus groups indicated that everybody-make-nice and civil liberties were the way to go. This would affect the undecided voters who were so crucial. I made the same point to HRC's Marty Rouse and several campaign people, and got the same response. The approach would be political rather than human, in every sense of both words.

Politics may move undecided voters, but it is only as valuable as the last person they talked to. Human connection move hearts and minds, even people whose minds are made up. People who know gay people don't usually vote against them. But it's easy to vote against someone who is invisible, faceless, a menacing other, instead of friend or family, or even someone you just met on the street. And we were quite invisible. We saw the supportive, loving parents, but no gay daughter, no grandchildren. No on 8 seemed totally uninterested in a speakers' bureau to reach out to community groups and churches; I gave up asking. They wanted volunteers for phone banking and sign waving in the Castro, not personal contact with real voters. At a training we were told NOT to use words like children, because Pro-8 people had appropriated the issue. We refused to claim it, and thus it was used against us. Likewise, don't talk about this ancient and deeply rooted anti-gay prejudice, either, because by calling attention to a reality in our lives, we might offend people who call us a threat to family, faith, and country.

This all may make sense to professional political people in their world and culture, but not in mine. It fails as a strategy because it embraces THE CLOSET, which is our real enemy, not the Radical Right. The closet is us, making ourselves invisible and unknown, rather than showing the simple fact and humanity of our lives. It is our consent to the lies, our silence in the face of naked prejudice. It is us not standing up for ourselves, and when we don't, who else will stand with us? I absolutely praise and thank our leaders for their efforts and sacrifices and dedication. But frankly, if our leaders don't know this, or if perhaps have their own issues of internalized homophobia, they shouldn't be our leaders. Because here's the result: we were barely visible, and more people thought that the standard of living of California chickens was more important than the families of their fellow Americans.

Thirty years ago, I worked against the Briggs Initiative. A much smaller group of people, with far fewer resources, in a far less accepting time, succeeded against great odds. Maybe I'm romanticizing, but I seem to remember it was because all we really had to show were ourselves and our lives. We said NO to the closet.

I know this is far from over. We will be back. However, if the future campaign is going to be focus groups, phone banking, invisibility, and cute but irrelevant ads that look good on political resumes but change nothing- don't expect one minute of my time, one iota of my energy, or one dime of my money.

---

by: Ben in Oakland @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:14:24 AM CST

I agree!

Thank you for spelling it out, because I'm still too angry to analyze.  I felt like I could see this train wreck coming a mile off, too, but couldn't quite put my finger on why I was feeling what I was.  I knew that I had tried for over a week to talk to someone at the SF office -- we were trying to donate a computer that their website stated they needed -- and nobody knew who to talk to or how to deal or anything.  After almost 2 weeks, they got their computer.  But that was 2 weeks wasted.

And the ads that they were playing felt so wrong to me.  No gays, no lesbians, no children of gays or lesbians, no response to the weeks of lies I was seeing on my teevee night after night after night.  I know that a lot of that was due to a lack of $$ (I got the EQCA emails every week) -- but it seemed that there was no clear message coming through, as if we didn't know what was heading our way.  WTF?

I agree with you 150%.  Thank you.  And thank you for what you did to defeat Briggs!  

(I'm also in Oakland)  

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony,reformer and suffragist (1820-1906)

---

by: CArebecca @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:38:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ben's right about the leaders of No on 8 -

- they really botched it. In particular they ignored Blacks and Latinos until the last minute, making no use of the opportunities provided by the powerful support of groups like MALDEF and the NAACP. They had the same clueless approach to the tremendous support we got from unions and many women's groups. While the volunteers were working their tails off the leadership of NO on 8 screwed up royally.  

The other big factor that led inexorably to our defeat was the cowardice of McCain and Obama. From the primaries on both constantly vied for the bigot vote, trying to outdo each other pandering to christers. In that effort Obama made huge gains, digging deep into Rove territory to close the bigot gap. Unlike the youth vote and others, these christers are regimented, disciplined and have real clout. They know the game. They elected Obama and now they own him.

I also worked against the Briggs Initiative in the grass roots, democratically run LA Committee Against the Briggs Initiative. We partnered with Bay Area CABI to build a mass action alternative to No on 6 because they were a lot like No on 8 this go around. Everyone in the CABI's and No On 6 worked till we dropped but we had one huge advantage that we lacked this time. Both Carter and Reagan came out against the Briggs Initiative. When that happened our numbers changed dramatically.

Now both parties pander to the religious right and all we get is from them is the chance to check out the undercarraige of the bus as it rolls over us, again and again. It began with Clintons gutless capitulation on DOMA and DADT. That was followed by Roves use of DOMA as a wedge issue in 2000 and 2004. When the Democrats regained the Congress in 2006 they continued the drift towards theocracy by eviscerating ENDA and tossing it's corpse along with the hate crimes bill in the garbage.

Now comes the latest betrayal. McCain blasted us saying that we're second class citizens who have to right to get married. Obama agreed and took it a step further. His comment "god's in the mix" said that god disapproved of us, that same sex marriage was a sin. (A sin is what ever interferes with a moneymaker like marriage for a priest, pastor, imam, rabbi, preacher or grand gazoo.) McCain and Obama caved on us, and their strident bigotry was an excuse, a green light for bigots to come up from the sewers and clobber us. The other betrayal was that liberals gave him a pass on his bigotry.

Now we need to pick up the pieces and build a mass action movement independent of the twin parties of bigotry. The road to equality will bypass the Democrats and Republicans.

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.

Don't enlist. Don't fight. Don't translate.  

---

by: donal1944 @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 15:58:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What to do

Register gay people to vote.
Make sure gay people vote.
Start saving $ and start spending it when necessary.

---

by: Chester @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:23:40 AM CST

Traditional marriage won battle, but war to resume in courts

OH F*CK NO!
You don't  take  our Human Rights and then try to MAKE NICE

"By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 11/06/2008 06:12:51 AM MST

Click photo to enlargeJoe, left, and Russ Baker-Gorringe, of Salt Lake City,... (Steve Griffin/The Salt Lake Tribune )«12»Now that California voters have outlawed same-sex marriage, an LDS Church leader called Wednesday for members to heal rifts caused by the emotional campaign by treating each other with "civility, with respect and with love."
   "We hope that everyone would treat [each other] that way no matter which side of this issue they were on," said Elder L. Whitney Clayton, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Presidency of the Seventy.
   Proposition 8 amends California's constitution to define marriage as legal only between one man and one woman. It overturns a June ruling by the California Supreme Court striking a 2000 ban on such unions. Since then, some 18,000 gay and lesbian couples were married in California - among them couples from Utah.
   Kate Kendell, director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights in San Francisco, said the center and the California attorney general believe those marriages will remain valid.
   By Wednesday, three lawsuits asked the California Supreme Court to overturn the proposition, and two of them asked the court to block it from taking effect while legal cases are pending.
   The lawsuits were filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights.
   Unofficial returns show the measure passing with a 440,000 vote margin. But 3 million ballots remain uncounted, which Kendell said made the outcome too close to call.
   "It's a very steep climb back," she said. "If tomorrow indicates that those ballots are from counties which voted overwhelmingly to defeat Prop 8, then we will have to look seriously at a possibility of making that climb."
   The LDS Church's campaign to pass Proposition 8 was its most vigorous since the 1970s, when it helped defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.
   Asked whether the LDS Church would engage in similar activism in the future, Clayton said, "It depends on the issue, and the time and what is going on."
   In a statement, the LDS Church said it does not object to domestic partnership or civil union legislation "as long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches."
   http://www.sltrib.com/utahpoli...

BACKLASH!!!!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:25:05 AM CST

Rhode Island Rhode Island Rhode Island

RI doesn't have a DOMA.  Last year the AttGen issued an opinion that MA weddings where recognized by RI public agencies.  Now CT marriages will be too.  The Democratic controlled legislature is socially conservative and Catholic Italian, Irish, Portuguese.  

Equality RI has been active for years trying to get marriage equality thur...it can't get out of committee.  I predict the wingnuts strike here soon.

---

by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:40:24 AM CST

Rhode Island

has managed to keep amendment attempts at bay.  Pro- and anti-marriage equality legislation keeps swirling around the legislature, to no real effect.  We have to hope that Roger Williams's ardent desire to keep church and state separate is still alive and well in RI.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

---

by: Lurleen @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 22:41:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Excuse me?

I'm sorry, wtf did they just say?

...will continue to fight to ensure that government serves to strengthen and preserve, rather than threaten, our families and our values."

What do they know about threats to families!?


watashi no yomeiri wa doko desu ka

---

by: belfrieboi @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:47:32 AM CST

Better yet...

...where in the fuck do they get the right to say anything about another person's marriage!!! It is none of their fucking business!!!

I'm with a lot of people that had mention this...it's high time that the US government taxes churches up the wazoo that choose to enter politics that discriminate against others. If they want to play, they gotta pay!!!

BTW: Did the IRS at least make an attempt to revoke the Mormon Churches non-profit status when they chose to pour funds in the California's fairness amendment fight from the 70s?

There is more that I've written in this post, but I'm really upset right now and I've deleted most of it! In addition to the news of our losses on November 4th, I've received news that I've been laid off from my job today followed by the sad news that a friend of mine died of a massive heart attack!!! Her partner is very devastated, and to add insult to injury, the paramedics would not allow her to ride to the hospital because she wasn't "family". My friend was still alive when she was loaded into the ambulance, but she died on the way to the hospital!!!

To quote someone (I've forgot who) "I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking it anymore!!!"

---

by: Robyn @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 19:57:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm mad as hell...

I think that was the character Howard Beale, played by Peter Finch, in the movie Network.

Very appropriate though.

watashi no yomeiri wa doko desu ka

---

by: belfrieboi @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:12:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

H8,,,,,,BACK

Utah and LDS church
  http://img.villagephotos.com/p...
you just became "H8 central"

The backlash will be swift and COSTLY

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:07:46 PM CST

An article in The Nation and discussions on Calitics

I thought Richard Kim's Marital Discord: Why Prop 8 Won was well worth reading, and avoided the recriminations and race-baiting.

There are also a couple of posts and discussions on Calitics worth checking out: Paul Hogarth's When Reactive Politics Become Losing Politics and Julia Rosen's Questions about what went wrong, so we can fix it for next time.

jon

---

by: jonpincus @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:08:17 PM CST

Thank you

The Kim article has one of the points I've been trying to articulate:

Andrea Shorter, a black lesbian volunteer for the No on 8 campaign, told me that the outreach to the African-American community began in earnest a week ago.

And when you add this:

These results have shocked gay activists, who knew from earlier polls that black voters favored Prop 8, but they were seeing much smaller margins, closer to 50 percent.

it says to me that the anti-8 campaigns had in some ways written the black community off before the election.

---

by: Darkrose @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 16:33:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Businesses supporting H8

   http://steamingpileofspin.blog...

here's a statuary company and ceiling medalions, HOW many queer decorators could NOT buy from these F^CKTARDS?

  http://www.wishihadthat.com/
here you can request their catalogs
I bet it's kinda spendy to print and mail out catalogs, nobody orders from......just saying
  http://www.wishihadthat.com/pr...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:22:32 PM CST

No catalogs

here you can request their catalogs
I bet it's kinda spendy to print and mail out catalogs, nobody orders from......just saying

Actually, it says they don't currently produce hard-copy catalogs.

And, the ecological damage of putting all of those printed catalogs into the mailstream->landfills probably outdoes the (insignificant) financial damage it would do to the company.

---

by: kmpintj @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:35:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

HERE's how Joan Baez...said it..

This from an interview about her new/old Blue grass type album...She did support Obama, although she has never supported a candidate before. (She also is the one who sang WeShallOvercome at the Lincooln Mem the Day MLK gave Dream speech.)..no specific mention of her position on gay rights..but here is her view of twentyfirst century activism. emphasis mine.

CNN: In the '50s and '60s, you lived and breathed the causes you rallied behind. When you look at young musicians today, do you feel they're attaching themselves to charities or causes because it's hip, rather than meaningful?

Baez: I think it's probably a combination of things. I think people are afraid of risk so they'll [only] go so far. But I don't think people have felt the urgency that we felt in the '60s. But it's there. The urgency is there. There's a need for community, but we don't feel it.

CNN: Why is that?

Baez: That we don't feel it? Because we live more and more separately. Kids are walking down the street plugged in [to personal electronics]. The only place there's community really is in the ghetto, where they need each other and they know it. We need each other, and we don't know it.

 

So we need to KNOW it and DO it.  I would say support all the groups you feel are relevent and helpful..and change if they aren't.  And keep showing the world you can be happy GLBT working family people...'right next door.'

"If the time isn't ripe, we have to ripen the time."
DOROTHY HEIGHT

---

by: Orion45 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:35:46 PM CST

The entire framework of the religious rights anti-gay platform

is based on one lone principle, that being "Nurture Not Nature".

Nurture not nature is the sole reason for the existence of Ex-Gay ministries as they can be used to "validate" the perception of nurture not nature.

Nurture not nature is the tonic that soothes the conscience of the religious right as they openly and relentlessly condemn the gay community for their "immoral behavior" that is "against nature" and therefore against "gods will".

Nurture not nature is the lone achilles heel of the religious right. Imagine the dilemma for the fundies if indisputable gay genetic markers were discovered whereupon "Nature not Nurture" became the "Legal Norm". Fundies of course would want to test their unborn to see if they were carrying the "demon seed", and then upon finding out that their unborn DID have those genetic markers, they want to shoot it out faster than cannonball from the muzzle of a canon.....well, except for that pesky pro-life thing.

Needless to say, the danger to the religious right should the concept of Nature Not Nurture become fact is more than significant, it is the crux of their entire argument.

---

by: A&E @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:56:57 PM CST

Back on topic

ADF (Alliance Defense Fund) http://www.alliancealert.org/ has a whole slew of links to articles under their headline Margin of Prop. 8 victory requires vigilance and ongoing efforts by churches and pro-family groups
Also: New legislatures expected to take up marriage redefinition bills in 5 states
Pretense of tolerance is over: Prop. 8 opponents attempt to defy voters
Three legal challenges to Prop 8 already filed or promised
"Contempt for the will of the people": Same-sex marriage proponents won't concede election, ask court to nullify Proposition 8

This lawsuit is a brazen attempt to gut the democratic process," said ADF senior counsel Glen Lavy. "The people of California have spoken yet again, but that doesn't mean anything to radical groups that want to impose their will at all costs. Once again, they are attempting to use the courts to push their agenda since they can't achieve it legitimately at the ballot box."

Lavy said the argument offered by opponents to the initiative is without merit. "The lawsuit is completely frivolous," he said .

Jordan Lorence: Marriage battle is not over, its just heating up

"This is not a dying issue. This is not an issue that had its heyday in the 2004 election and is dwindling," Lawrence said in a telephone interview with Stateline.org. He called the ballot measures proof of voters' frustration with "judicial activism" in the states that have allowed gays and lesbians to marry

and, Fighting Over Voter-Approved Marriage Amendment Puts "Squeeze on California's Chief Justice"

They're busy over there today.  

---

by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 13:22:29 PM CST

Get tough!

We must demand that politicians like Obama take principled stands on our behalf in exchange for our votes. We need to detach our fight for our civil rights from a reliance on politicians from any one political party. There should be a renewed national gay rights mobilization, with marches (NOT FEEL GOOD PARTY PARADES!), and direct action.


Jim Kelly, Cherry Grove, NY/Phila, PA

---

by: skeptic49 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:27:09 PM CST

High school...

Does anyone have any ideas how GSAs could get involved? Because I know gay rights issues have a LOT of sympathy at my school, or at least a lot of people willing to listen, and they'll be the ones voting in the next few years. Making efforts to meet high schoolers where they're at and let them know why this is important seems like a pretty decent place to start.

---

by: spiffykt @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 15:06:35 PM CST

GSA activism

That's a really good question and I think the answer is very clear.  GSA's can take on the school issues that were trotted out by the anti-equality side.  A GSA holding a public event about school discrimination and unequal education for GLBT kids and kids of GLBT parents would be a great response to the fear-mongering about teaching about equal marriage in school.  That type of event could take many forms and GSA's all over the place could take it on.  Art, info distribution, public tv spots, getting newspapers to give you guest op-ed columns, rallies, walk-outs- anything like that would be very powerful coming from young people.  Maybe GLSEN would be able help make that into a coordinated thing.  I started a GSA at my high school years ago and held several events there, so I know how much of an impact you can make.  Good luck!

Yes we can!

---

by: bluegirlbb @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 21:54:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We need to go back to visible direct action protests

learn from history and ACT UP. Gay activism has become fancy fundraisers and sucking up to celebrities that think it's "cool" to be pro-gay.

The protest marches in LA today were a good move. We need to be as agressive and in their face as the fundies. We have been to nice for too long. NO MORE

---

by: DilworthDem @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 16:26:36 PM CST

We need to go back to visible direct action protests

learn from history and ACT UP. Gay activism has become fancy fundraisers and sucking up to celebrities that think it's "cool" to be pro-gay.

The protest marches in LA today were a good move. We need to be as agressive and in their face as the fundies. We have been to nice for too long. NO MORE

---

by: DilworthDem @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 16:26:36 PM CST

Keep on Getting Married

My first time posting here at Pam's. I've liked the site for a long time, thanks. Here's a not so new idea.
I maintain that eventually, the courts will all, every state, find that state recognized marriage is not for the few, it's for all or none....eventually.

Meantime, keep getting married. Don't wait for laws to catch up in your state, just do it. Have ridiculously huge, boring weddings with lousy music.  Invite every single person you know. The population of people facing daily discrimination needs to grow and be tracked and be visible.  This will help all court actions and subtly change some attitudes.

The problem is, the god-fearers are told "if we start letting gays get married ..... (fill in the blah, blah part)", so in their heart they think it's ok to avert something that isn't happening yet, so no harm done. Many of these folks are decent people who just figure they aren't hurting anyone if they stop it now before it happens. I say, just get married and ignore the law. It's your right and you know it.  Eventually your home state will be forced to equalize your rights.

Look at the impact "18,000 legally married gay couples" had in the national media? They love reporting that number.
What if they said "500,000 illegally married gay couples."

And, Pam, I gotta tell ya, my mom is in NC, very religious. The Dole mailer is the one that put her over the top. She couldn't imagine how someone could use hate and religion together like that, so she voted against her AND John McCain, because his campaign sounded a lot like Doles to her.
There's hope for NC! Hang in there!

---

by: damix @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 17:00:47 PM CST

liberal policies on the defense, yet again. when are we going to talk about the threat of anti-american theocracy?

it's getting SOOOO tiresome being on the defense against the neocons and fundies in this nation--who, while not bright, are quick and easy with a lie that puts us and our democratic allies on the defense.  and we wonder why we always lose.  

i'll use the recent presidential campaign as a comparison.  the fantastical attacks against obama were incessant--terrorist, bill ayers, muslim, socialist, unamerican, ad infinitum.  he won, but i'd say that if it wasn't for an economic crisis FORCING people to stay on the issues, he would have lost in a heartbeat.  the no-attack strategy would not have worked for him because it hasn't worked in the past for democrats, who when they get a chance to speak become busy only defending themselves against a baseless outrage, while the seed gets planted into the head of "joe six pack".  

those attacks are a product of far-right extremism, which has no left counterpart.  they are given weight in the media, time on the air, and discussion within the debate forum.  THEY WORK, and it's waaaaay past time for us to start using them.  our defeat on prop 8 and in the constitutional amendments around the country are similarly a product of far-right extremism.  

we need to start a movement that will sweep theocracy out of the federacy, because theocracy is a real threat to this nation, and it's something that has been taken for granted for too long.  align even moderates with far-right extremism to make it as distateful as possible (if you voted for prop 8, you belong with the phelps clan as far as i'm concerned).  TAX, TAX, TAX those churches who interfere with politics and civil rights.  push for the removal of federally-recognized holidays that are religious in basis (christmas especially).  but especially, demand that the goverment make a distinction between the religious component of marriage and the special rights that are bestowed on that class from the state.  push for federally-recognized civil unions and abolish the definition of marriage, at least as far as the state is concerned.

get religion out of government, NOW.  we need to be on the attack and get them on the defense.        

The gays stole my lunch money

---

by: matt in mpls @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 17:39:31 PM CST

oh, and also...

especially demand the removal of any public servant who uses their personally-chosen religious beliefs to guide the public-policy making.  it is undemocratic and unconstitutional.  

god, i'm mad.  >:(  

The gays stole my lunch money

---

by: matt in mpls @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 17:49:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That means impeaching Obama...

and Biden on January 21st, 2009. Because he says we're sinners - 'god's in the mix' as if that superstitious belief justifies his bigoted opposition to same sex marriage. It doesn't really but Obama clearly thinks it comes in handy for opportunist hustlers trawling for rightwing christer votes. And Biden voted for DOMA and DADT along with the majority of Democrat Party bigots.

Or did you mean just Republican bigots? Do you want to give Obama a partisan pass on his superstition driven prejudice?

Why should he or Biden get off?  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.

Don't enlist. Don't fight. Don't translate.  

---

by: donal1944 @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 16:45:26 PM CST

[ Parent ]

religion in government

 matt in mpls

I think we saw, in this national election, voters resisting religious overtones in political discourse. Every time some candidate spouted religious vitriole, they saw a drop in the polls. I dare say I think we're seeing people compare their own religious viewpoints to those of the the world leaders they have been trained to hate. That's why I think the time is ripe to gently point out to everyone you know how religion has only recently crept into and commanded our politics. Let's face it, the Republicans lost this election because the religious argument didn't fly with the voters.

I've had great success with this. Every time I meet someone who is in their second marriage, I say " Wow. Married before? Lucky for you the law doesn't follow the Bible. That would mean one man, one woman, forever."
I've found it to be a good opener. Most remarried straight people have no idea they are enjoying an exception to their "gods" law, an exception granted by the State. Puts gay marriage in perspective for them.

---

by: damix @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 19:28:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I've written emails to sundance film festival, Park City and alta ski resorts

also to many utah tourism sites, TV and newspapers in UT, to let them know I am boycotting their state

Keep your G*D DAMN H8
in your own State

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 18:03:20 PM CST

Like that idea

But I am wondering. Maybe LGBTs should take a more hands-on approach of actually going those places, holding hands there, kissing. Sure they'll yell out stuff and deride it, but they're doing it anyway. And what is it but just another way to tell us we're not human (which they just did in CA).

---

by: avocado @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:16:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Out of the closets of our liberal oases and into the Net!

Youtube campaign, people from various communities speaking out on their relationships and the inherent unfairness of Prop 8. We need these couples who have just been denied their fundamental rights on camera telling the youtube audience what they did. What it means to these couples. The PFLAG moms and dads, siblings, friends. We need their take. We need to show the human side of the story.

Sure, we won't persuade the religious crazies, but we will surely make some of the viewers reconsider their position. I myself am not in California, but I would suggest having all kinds of families - families of color, various sizes, etc.

On top of that, I think that some LGBT and ally folk who are lawyers, judges, legal historians need to also go on youtube (if we're talking grass roots campaign) and tell the truth, tell the people who watch what it means to have a strong First Amendment rights. Tell the viewers the reality behind the lies about teaching about "the gays marrying".

We should also be pushing for better civics education for kids in districts/states where we have influence the education processes (either through our own means or through the Democratic party), to educate people so that they will not only be able to parrot "you have the right to remain silent" from some TV drama, but actually name the 9 justices of the Supreme Court and their legal philosophy (beyond the usual liberal activists vs. conservative Neanderthals).  

---

by: avocado @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:13:34 PM CST

Yay, youtube!

The YouTube thing would be great... if anyone with a YouTube account wants to get something started, let me know and I can get my tiny circle of high school activists involved spreading it around. Unfortunately, not in California, but happy to help any way I can.

---

by: spiffykt @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 20:30:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not to push in line, but IOWA NEEDS HELP!

Oral arguments before our State Supreme Court Dec 9th! I've already asked for teaspoons over at Shakesville, but we need all the help we can get, especially with a DINO governor who has already gotten his knickers in a twist over the very idea that the court might rule in our favour:

...Culver says he hopes the state Supreme Court will soon deliver a ruling on same-sex marriage. And he said if the court should uphold a lower court ruling that struck down Iowa's ban on gay marriage he will press the legislature to speed through a constitutional amendment.

The governor also suggested that if the court ruling comes down after the legislature adjourns he could call a special session to deal with the amendment.

'We'll do whatever it takes to protect marriage between a man and a woman," Culver told the Associated Press.--365gay.com 1/22/08

Tick tock, people.

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

---

by: Switchhttr69 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 23:42:39 PM CST

Here's a good beginning..

and the reason why I Love LA

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.

Don't enlist. Don't fight. Don't translate.  

---

by: donal1944 @ Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 16:26:42 PM CST