Mormon and Catholic churches complain about being the target of Prop 8 protests

the Pain theory of freedom of expression?

Sounds like they've been getting lessons from Bible Spice about what the first amendment means: "You're criticizing me for things I've said and done, you're violating my free speech!"

Look religious bigots, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen (please, just get out!). Politics can be rough, you've got to expect people to notice what you do and to hold you responsible for it... Sheesh.

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by: cymatic @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:29:04 AM CST

I'd like to offer a slight correction here...

This is an error I've seen before and I really think we need to be absolutely crystal clear on our terminology so that we don't get called out.

The LDS Church qua church donated around $4000 to Yes on 8. However, and this is most important, the Church used its moral suasion, plus the fact that it keeps records of members' donations (which is supposed to be 10% of income) to suggest strongly that members could donate certain amounts to Yes on 8.

Additionally, efforts to distribute signs, phone bank, walk precincts, etc., were coordinated by the Church. Also, I'm reminded by checking my e-mail archives that the Church promoted a satellite broadcast for Wednesday, Oct. 8, that featured General Authorities (high church leaders) and others and was directed towards members, particularly young marrieds and young single adults. [N.B., They know better than to ask older single adults as we (a) tend to be inactive and (b) are not stupid about the fact that our life choices are not respected in the LDS church.] This invitation went out over the signature of one L. Whitney Clayton, a high church official who has a law degree from the University of the Pacific law school. Presumably L. Whitney had the same type of constitutional law class I had when I went to law school--but maybe he didn't get it hammered into his head as I did growing up that rights are not obtained merely through passing laws, but also by agitation and court cases.

So, while it's wrong to say that the LDS Church donated vast sums of money to Yes on 8, and we must be VERY careful not to give that impression. However the Church DID armtwist the faithful into donating time, talents and, most especially, MONEY to the cause.

I also think the Church and its P.R. people didn't realize how much blowback there would be. I am honestly surprised myself. But it warms my heart to see thousands of people go to Temple Square on a Friday night to let the General Authorities and their minions know that their actions in coordinating the Yes on 8 campaign are well-known and will not be forgotten.

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by: Mirele @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:40:51 AM CST

point taken

and will reword this.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:34:36 AM CST

[ Parent ]

If the "Church" itself donated a DIME to Yes on 8 ....

... or $10,000,000.00, it's the same: the "Church" crossed the lines separating church and state.  They should have their tax-exempt status pulled.  Let the "Church" pay the property-tax bills on those exclusive white-marble palaces, as well as the thousands of stakes throughout the country, and see how long they hold out.  Either that, or your General Authorities need to be introduced to the art of shielding one's face while handcuffed and doing the perp walk.

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by: ExHack @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 23:54:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This one just floored me...

On Thursday, Roman Catholic and Mormon leaders said their efforts did not target any specific group.

The coalition of religious communities and citizens who supported Proposition 8 wanted to preserve "the bedrock institution of marriage" between a man and a woman, said Cardinal Roger Mahoney, the Catholic archbishop of Los Angeles.

"Proposition 8 is not against any group in our society," Mahoney said in a written statement.

Maybe I'm stupid, but it sure seemed like they were targeting gays and lesbians.  F***** liars and hypocrites

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by: Phil @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:26:26 AM CST

or

they just don't count us as within their 'society'.

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by: Rae @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:27:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

MOMONISM IS A CULT

These talking-salamander loving f**ktards are a cult pure and simple. I put these crazy freaks on the same level as Scientologists. I am not surprised that they are now playing the victim card when they are being called to take the shame for what they did. I aggressively shame anyone that believes as a Mormon just as i shame those that are Catholic. We need to be aggressive on this people! In their face day in and day out. Let them know who you are and that you are watching them and watching how they act in their lives. We cannot be pussies about this and need to fight these people in the ring that they have created. Let them know we have come to play ball. How typical of little babies that they now want to pick up the ball and run home crying because they are going to look bad on the field and they know it. I hate them. Always will.

Also SHAME on you who are BLACK and voted Yes on 8. How dare you? Not one BLACK should have ever voted on Yes on 8 ever. I challenge anyone to explain to me why a BLACK would ever want choose to vote Yes on 8? A valid, rational explanation. I wont accept that it is their goddamn belief in jeebus. That is not an explanation or excuse at all. At one time it was that belief in jeebus that provided permission to enslave these people and deny them their civil liberties and rights as a human being. Also could someone please tell me why the mormorn freaks reached out to the black community when they dont even think that blacks are human at all but rather of satan according to their belief system?

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by: texaspigeon @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:26:32 AM CST

Well

Well, I am as you say BLACK (emphasis yours), and I can say that reasons are that people are more than the sum of the melanin in their skin. Some people don't care, others are deeply religious, others are rich and have been able to buy their way out of personally experiencing terrible oppression. The list goes on. It's extremely ignorant (not to mention racist) to say that skin color is the sum of a person's outlook on life.

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by: laurynx @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:43:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Look you are getting it all wrong.

I am saying SHAME on all of them! But I am just stating a point that I believe. I do believe that when we are talking about civil liberties and civil rights that the Aftrican American knows about this intimately and should be having some empathy going into the voting booth. I will shame them to their face to challenge their thinking. If it is deeply religious then i'm not going to buy into that bs either. For hundreds of years it was deeply religious and a good christion to be a good productive slave owner. You know that. It was religion that considered women chattel for thousands of years. There was NO marriage the way these fucktard are thinking it. Women were owned! They were chattel. Like slaves. I just think that we have to be a little more aggressive to all who voted. I am glad that we are protesting and acting up and being vocal. I am not racist. There isnt anything that i said that was racist or anti christer. But these people that voted yes are Homophobic and when that happens then i am a true believer in quid pro quo and then it opens the door for me to then become just as they are. They hate that. Read the news. They are so upset that we are threatening to boycott and to protest. This is a war for sure. And its not going to be a pretty one. Please dont call me ignorant. I am far from that. Nothing I said in my comment was based on ignorance at all.  

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by: texaspigeon @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:03:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Shame on anyone...

who voted against freedom of religion, separation of church and state, and civil liberties. Doesn't matter what their skin-colour is; shame on them all.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

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by: tavdy79 @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 06:05:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Bigotry against the religious is still bigotry.

Be pissed.

Don't be a bigot.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:11:58 AM CST

Not all opposition to religion is bigotry

Blanket condemnations of all religious people is bigotry, to be sure.  Criticism of the behavior of churches as corporate entities is not.  Neither are attempts to inject reason and logic (and simple common sense, for that matter) into discussions of the churches' behavior.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:38:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No it isnt.

No cowboy it is just quid pro quo. It is the religious bigotry reaping their just rewards for their behavior. It is a payback pure and simple. Justified and and my response to them is "You have been weighed. You have been measured. And you have been found wanting."  

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by: texaspigeon @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:10:18 AM CST

[ Parent ]

LDS you don't come SH*T on our sacred things, our marriages and our families

And walk away unscaythed. You don't put up motherf*ckin 4 or every 5 dollars for the yes on Prop 8 and whine after the fact. Had you pulled this sh*t with anyone besides gays/lesbians and you would have ASHES where your temples once stood. Think Jews or Blacks would have put up with your f*ckin with their families? Think Chinese or Native Americans would? We will bankrupt your G*D DAMN businesses, and you will shut the F*ck up, knowing it could be much worse.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:41:40 AM CST

DAMN SKIPPY!

DAMN SKIPPY PETEY! You rock on this point!

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by: texaspigeon @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:17:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Protest!!

I think one of the problems in this country is that churches are NOT protested.  Here is an entity that makes use of public services, but pays no taxes.  I see churches use the police for traffic control and I wonder what that officer must be thinking.  Instead, they collect that money and use it for whatever they like - such as smearing campaigns and clinics.  They use the strength of the religious community to do the churches bidding.  It's wrong.

How DARE they claim free speech for themselves but denounce it when they are the subject?

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by: rayhaque @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:43:17 AM CST

Mormons YOU escalated the Culture WAR

From longtime Consciencious Objectors maybe you should have F*CKIN thought about that, before you ripped OUR G*D DAMN families apart.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:48:52 AM CST

Are they hoping we forgot???

When Father Geoffrey Farrow spoke from the Catholic dais at the Saint Paul Newman Center, October 5, 2008 and told his congregation he would not follow the Diocese's orders to tell the faithful to vote yes on 8?

No, I didn't, Farrow stood up and showed his bravery and honesty - I would like to think that what he said was not ignored.

Every person who has evidence of the churches instructing the masses (the FAX Farrow mentioned) or video/photos of the churches handing out or providing political materials should CONTACT THE IRS!!!

The IRS was sicced on the United Church of Christ when they allowed Obama to speak from the pulpit during an annual meeting.

Let's sic the IRS on those who violate the separation of Church and State - but it takes EVIDENCE!!!

My wife and I traveled to San Francisco in October specifically to be married on our 4th anniversary.  And I don't want my marriage invalidated.  Even if though for now that piece of paper is worth nothing in our home state of Texas - it means the world to us and our community that we all fight for what is our right.

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by: Beejcctx @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:02:32 AM CST

re: IRS and tax status

The rules are much laxer for church involvement in legislation (including initiatives) than with individual candidates. That's why UCC was potentially in trouble for Obama's appearance (although they were, of course, cleared in the end).

According to the IRS:
Churches "are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office."

Supporting an initiative like Proposition 8 is allowed as long as the church doesn't devote "a substantial part of its activities [to] attempting to influence legisla­tion (commonly known as lobbying)." Given how much stuff the LDS Church does besides trying to strip LGBTs of our rights, it seems unlikely that it's violated the "substantial part test" in this campaign. It's ultimately up to the IRS to investigate, though, and it might be worthwhile to urge the IRS to take a look.

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by: cymatic @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:44:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The IRS Should be Called

to look into the Mormons activities with Prop 8. As you say, they will probably be cleared in the end, however, the Mormon church will be forced to spend their money, time, and effort to defend themselves. And the IRS can be real B**ches when they want to be. In this instance, that would be a good thing.

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by: Fiona @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:02:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Exactly. "Defund the left"? Let's defund the right.

...the Mormon church will be forced to spend their money, time, and effort to defend themselves.

Thomas Frank talks about this in The Wrecking Crew: "a long campaign of sabotage and disruption that would cut off the supply lines to liberal organizations and eventually shut them down (Frank, p. 80). Specifically, he refers to the idea of cutting funding for liberal federal programs, not only ending the programs themselves, but also drying up career opportunities for people with liberal politics. Of course, we suffer the same sort of attacks from outfits like the Alliance Defense Fund (lawsuits being expensive to litigate). I suppose I sound as if I'm advocating a legal and financial arms race; my reply: if this be treason, make the most of it.

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

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by: Switchhttr69 @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 00:34:11 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks for clarifying the difference...

...legally between a church supporting a particular candidate and/or party, and its getting involved in legislation. Because there were churches and denominations in California, such as the Unitarian Universalists, vigorously working AGAINST Prop 8. We don't have the numbers the LDS and the Catholics have, but there were people of faith out there encouraging folks to vote NO, and we organized within our congregations. We'd be just as vulnerable to an IRS investigation as the LDS.

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by: LesGS @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 13:56:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Two Sunday mornings ago

as I was on my way to do some grocery shopping, I happened to walk past the local fundy church. Services were just letting out.   And HORDES of people were coming out, carrying McCain-Palin signs.  They were obviously being distributed in the church, during services.  I can't tell you what pleasure it gave me to call the IRS the next day to report them.  I doubt if much will come of it, but it was more than worth doing.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:55:52 AM CST

[ Parent ]

LDS you descend from pascifists

Our lineage comes from Sacred Band of Thebes and Alexander the Great and Amazons....you started something with the WRONG Tribe.

An ARMY of LOVERS

For a people so keen on Lineage and genealogy, you didn't research your enemy very well.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:18:08 AM CST

Pacifists?

The only reason Mormon history is not as soaked in blood as Catholic history is that they haven't been around as long.  

If you need a good example, do some research on the Mountain Meadow Massacre.  As horrific as any accounts of the Inquisition.  And perpetrated deliberately by the Mormon leadership.

(To give the Mormons their due, though, they have quite an admirable record of sexually abusing children, though here too they can't compete with the Catholic church, which has been at it so much longer.  Again, read a bit of their history.)

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:49:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We Have Our Share Of Psycopaths Too.

Like Dennis Nilsen, the British serial killer who murdered 15 young men and attempted to kill four more between 1979 and 1983, and was finally caught when the drains in his road were block by the butchered body-parts of his last victim.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

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by: tavdy79 @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 13:54:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, there are gay psychos.

But they are individuals, not institutions or their representatives.  And I have never heard of one claiming to be an agent of the gay community or any of its organizations.  When HRC and Stonewall start sending out squads of serial killers, you'll have a point.  But until such a thing happens, what you say strikes me as irrelevant; there is simply no parallel.  Worse, it sounds like the kind of thing we hear all the time from Dobson et al.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 16:38:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Vigilante Psychos

I'm wore concerned about vigilantes.

Dennis Nilsen was able to get away with killing fifteen people in separate incidents over a four-year period. Even though the police were aware of Nilsen as early as 1979 - at which point he'd only killed one person - they could do nothing as there was no evidence and his first surviving victim refused to press charges - presumably because it would mean coming out publicly. However Nilsen's murders where both opportunistic and intentionally secretive - he's not a vigilante-type killer; he merely serves to show that being gay doesn't insulate you from being a nutjob.

If you have someone who is already psychologically imbalanced this kind of injustice could send them over the edge. Many on the fringes of the Religious Reich have proven that they're willing to kill LGBT people; I can well imagine some LGBT people not just wanting to give them "a taste of their own medicine", but actually following through with the idea. That kind of attack is hardly without precedent (A pre-warning on the last of those five links - there are no pics but it's still gruesome). With the exception of the Shepard and Gisberta murders all five examples were undoubtedly pre-planned, and the Gisberta murder was probably the only one not intended to be headline news; in all five cases there was little the police could do to prevent them taking place. That is exactly the kind of publicity a vigilante would want - especially if, like Seung-Hui Cho or Harris and Klebold, they intend to exchange their life for those of the targets.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

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by: tavdy79 @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 07:07:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Boycott UTAH - No Tourist Dollars!

That will hit their LDS church!

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by: RogernDC @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:19:26 AM CST

Get the bigots a box of tissues

I could care less that these bigots are boohooing that they are being unfairly picked on.  The LDS and RCC used their power from the pulpit and called on their sheeple to give money, and time.  They were well organized and used misinformation in their campaign to rally and scare people.   They broke there own commandment by bearing false witness.

We need to to keep it up and focus everyones attention to the fact that this was a campaign of hate and discrimination plain and simple. The Equality Cal people need to be called out as well for running a shoddy campaign.  They underestimated the power of these bigots to organize and not hit back hard when disinformation was put out.  I dont trust that the current leadership of Equal Cal can galvanize our community and get the job done.  
I am not advocating violence in any way against these religious bigots, but I am saying that we as a group must channel and focus our energy / fury. If that means acts of civil disobedience, boycotting of businesses which contributed to yes on 8.  I know people have suggested another march on Washington like 1993, perhaps that would have some effect.  I personally would love to see a march on Salt Lake City.  Just like MLK did with the peaceful demonstrations in the south.  We need to do it again and bring it back to the streets, their neighborhoods, their businesses. We need to take it to the place where the hate is coming from.  We need to focus this countries attention to the fact that these religious groups are no better than any other hate group, they just have prettier robes without hoods.  While at the same time showing the country that we are no different than any other American.  We just want what is fair and just, true equality under the law.  

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by: FX N DC @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:45:42 AM CST

Let's be honest, here.

If churches ever stopped lying, the entire enterprise would crumble into dust overnight.  These are institutions that earn vast quantities of cash and accumulate enormous political power by convincing people to believe in talking snakes, virgin births, walking on water and the "infallibility" of old Nazis in Prada.  Lying is their stock in trade.  How could they ever stop it?

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:02:23 AM CST

You beat me to it...

The Antis, in this case churches, are exercising their first amendment right to LIE.  It's so Republican, isn't it?

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:40:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

so long as churches are being picketed

Has anyone identified any of the major black congregations in CA which preach homophobia along with the "love of Jesus" and started picketing their locations?  If they are teaching their sheep to hate and fear- and discrimninate against LGBT's  while lining their collection plates with money from made from hate, should they not get the same treatment as the catholics and mor(m)ons? Or do they somehow get a pass in order to avoid the " racist" tag?  

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by: Miranda Writes @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:33:44 AM CST

Protect Marriage Church endorsements

The f**kerts have already taken down their endorsement pages on their website...Previously I counted 204 Churches which endorsed H8.  Most of them were white congregations.

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:39:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Slander and Lies

Both of which I believe are still considered sins to both the Catholics and Mormons. That is the real issue here. Both churches have every right to participate in a democratic process, but they have no right to deman, belittle, slander and dehumanize an entire segment of the population with lies and stereotypes. They have no right even to demand a vote on our civil rights, that is, if they desire to live in a tolerant society.

I was raised Catholic and as much as I consider that an ethnic as well as religious identity, the truth is being Catholic or Mormon is a lifestyle choice. If they want tolerance for their lifestyle choices, it does not seem unreasonable to demand the same.  

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by: CPT_Doom @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:37:03 AM CST

Haven't you ever caught on?

Lying, like theft, fraud and child molesting, are only sins in the eyes of the churches when other people do them.  Corporate executives, er, I mean church leaders are always exempt from the rules they lat down for the rest of us.  

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:31:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Bleah

It really is the Sarah Palin school of no-matter-what-I-say-next-I'm-not-a-bigot.

If it's the church's right to foment hatred against people with whom it disagrees on alleged religious grounds, it's certainly our right to foreground their doing so in the secular media. I mean--REALLY people: you want to strip me of my rights AND you don't want me to complain? That's some chutzpah royale.

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by: Nancy in NYC @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:12:59 AM CST

I need to examine what I "know"

I was raised Mormon but haven't considered myself a member for nearly 30 years. My parents are both very active and religion is one of those things we Just Don't Discuss. They're also hard core right wing Republicans. (They still came out to my wedding.) Yesterday I faxed a letter of resignation to the church headquarters and I knew I needed to break the news to them before their bishop had a chance to spin it. A friend of mine didn't and her parents' bishop told them "your daughter has chosen not to be a part of your eternal family". Better that the news come from me.

I just got off a 2 hour phone call with my father. One of the things I've always known without asking is that both my parents voted in favor of the Utah amendment to ban equal marriage rights in Utah. What came out in the phone call was that my father voted against it. He told me that free will is one of the core beliefs of the church, and passing a law like that violates free will. Could have knocked me over with a feather.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:47:53 AM CST

Pre-schoolers and the law of unintended consequences

Many of the Proposition 8 supporters I've encountered this week seem to be almost childlike and unable to comprehend what they've done. They do not appear to understand why people are taking this more personally than, say, voting down a municipal bond initiative. It reminds me of trying to explain Inappropriate Actions to a pre-schooler, except that the pre-schoolers generally have a better ability to understand and correct themselves.

Also, I think that these churches and other power players who helped pass Proposition 8 are going to really regret the accompanying law of unintended consequences for their actions. Along with alienating many of their younger members (or at least getting them seriously questioning their adherence to that flavor of faith), they appear to have united and re-radicalized the queer communities. In a decade's time, I do believe that they'll discover the passage of 8 was far costlier than they ever would have imagined.

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by: dantsea @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:50:07 AM CST

Misunderstanding of Rights

I love when people talk about free speech, that means a lack of criticism.  We have a total right to attack the LDS church for their actions.  They encouraged people to vote according to their religious beliefs, and now it is coming back to hurt them.  So what?  Christians who believe in the Great Commission have shut one of the big doors--the gay community.  

It is about time that the Mormon church look at their actions.  They are very isolated usually.  

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by: Johnnywhynot @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:32:59 PM CST

Cry me a river of tears

Pro 8 LDS members------>liars and bullies.

Dena

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 00:39:05 AM CST

If I was close to the headquarters of LDS,

  I would join in a protest against them.  I would also invite Soul Force to be there and offer an interview with the higher ups of LDS.

 I am hoping the protests keep up as well as spread from state to state, targeting every LDS church.  I know there were more religious orginizations involved.  But what we need to do is start with one and spread to others.  Those that fly the rainbow flag will not be a target of protest.

 And I am not just saying to protest against religious organization because of Same-Sex Marriage.  I say they need to be made aware we in the United States do not want to live in a theocracy.  They have their right to religion.  And the laws of this country need to be free from religion.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 00:53:16 AM CST

GOOD, GOOD one Pam.

Left comment on HuffPo too, because someone wrote in and said that, 'apparently a hacker had left a picture of a tiny violin on your post!'  I think I straightened them out.

HEY all, do go sign the petition linked at the bottom of the "Prop 8 supporting Mormons thread above. ...said over 120,000 sigs so far!

Here it is...easier...

mormonsstoleourrights.com/

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 17:30:31 PM CST

List of Pro-Prop 8 Donors

http://antigayblacklist.com/

http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/pr...

This is moral and immoral. The moral thing, the thing that everyone knows is right inside, though some are afraid to say, is EQUALITY. Inequality is immoral.

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by: mickdansforth @ Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 17:52:22 PM CST

Mormon Doctrine & POV

If I'm not mistaken, the Mormon Church has said, in the past, that actively gay members cannot participate fully in the church, not because their homosexual members are bad people, but because the church does not condone sex outside of marriage (for gay or straight members). This is the main reason why they have fought so strongly against legal "marriage" for same-sex couples. If gays can legally be "married", then the church will no longer have that excuse and will be forced to deal with the actual moral issue of equal rights for all G-d's children.  

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by: Wayside Lane @ Thu Nov 13, 2008 at 07:33:56 AM CST