Mormon Church Issues "Statement on Democratic Process"

Amen, Mirele.

I'm also sick and tired of these Nazis without the swastika bitching and whining about the bad PR they've got. If they've ever read the Bible instead of the Book Of Mormon, they would have read these words from Jesus-"As ye sow, so shall ye reap." In other words, every action has an EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION. You took civil rights away from me? I'm going to march, protest and BOYCOTT. They asked for this, and now they're getting it full force. And it isn't going to quit, either.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 18:10:01 PM CST

NO MORE FORCED DIVORCE!

I'm so glad that you reminded me that prop 8 not only stopped marriage going forward, it also attempts to force divorced on all those married couples.  I think this point could use more publicity.

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 18:21:41 PM CST

Agreed!

One of those couples are new and dear friends of mine; that this is happening to such wonderful good women is horrifying and gut-wrenching for me and my family.

Their marriage was legal when it was performed and it should remain legal, as long as THEY decide it should be so. Not the state of California or anyone else to decide.

And in case my friends read this (as they sometimes do visit PHB)- BIG HUGS AND LOVE TO YOU BOTH. HANG IN THERE AND KNOW THERE IS ALOT OF SUPPORT UP HERE IN THE WILDERNESS FOR YOU... :)

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 19:58:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, it's worse...

...because we don't know what our status is. Prop 8 was drafted before the court ruling, so it doesn't address those of us who got married in the interim. All the Yes people could do was blame the court for not giving them a stay until after the election. Jerry Brown says he thinks all marriages are still valid, but no one really knows for sure.

Fortunately for us, I suspect we'd just revert to being domestic partners. But what about people who weren't DP's prior to getting married? What happens to them?

One of the things that I wish No on 8 had hammered on was the fact that if SSM is no longer recognized, the state will end up paying money we don't have in court costs to figure out the status of the 18,000 couples that were already married. In addition to the money, it would have pressed the point that we've already had SSM, and none of the things the Yes people claimed were inevitable had happened.

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by: Darkrose @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:30:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

...way worse

Everyone is just holding their breath at the moment, waiting for the California Supreme Court to decide what to do. If the court doesn't invalidate the referendum results somehow, then the legal nightmares begin in earnest. Are people really forcibly divorced? If so, what does that mean under California's divorce laws? Or is the relationship "something else"? What kind of property interest is created in a "former marriage" like this? Every question leads to another question.

Frankly, the Yes on 8 people, in their absolute zeal to end marriage for gays and lesbians, didn't think through the very real possibility that heartbreaking stories are going to go through the courts, TV and newspapers for years to come as a result of this election. It was more important to them that the magical word "marriage" (the most important word to them in the English language, more important than "god," even) not be applied to legal gay and lesbian relationships. And if that leads to forced divorces, they don't really care.

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by: Mirele @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 02:15:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"People of faith have a democratic right to express their views in the public square without fear of reprisal."

no one is preventing them from expressing their views in the public square.  rather, we are expressing our views of their heinous behavior in the public square, as is our right.

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 18:26:23 PM CST

Amen!!

Up until this point I think the Catholics and Mormons have been pretty lucky.  They've run roughshod over gays in states across this nation, often in states with relatively small tlgb constituencies like my former home, Michigan.  When the anti-gay things passed, tlgb people just became more afraid and didn't really fight back.  

Now that there's pushback these people have the nerve to talk about decency?   The nerve of these people.  

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by: Ann Arbor Matt @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 23:01:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well

we are expressing our views of their heinous behavior in the public square

Apparently these are not actions that are worthy of the democratic ideals of our nation

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by: mcc @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:01:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Frankly, it's taken us an awfully long time to point out that, unless we are

members of their "church," our marriage isn't any of the damned business. Period.

For all the posturing these cults do about "sanctity of marriage" and "this is a moral issue" they haven't amended the Constitution to prevent child sexual predators, rapists, spousal abusers or adulterers from marrying. So their big hangup is that their alleged "faith" can't "accept" a same-sex couple contracting with the state and holding a ceremony in another church. But it isn't even about their cult accepting other's constitutional rights - why no, they have to insist that the rights of free citizens be regulated by the dictates of THEIR chosen faith -while we apparently have no say in their own marriages.

It's called religious tyranny. You can't have a respectful debate with people who deliberately misrepresent you or manufacture false fear-and-smear. This real discussion has just started, and for once we are engaging the conversation so that it includes the oppressor's own moral trespasses. We should have been doing this years ago.  

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by: kevinbgoode @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:39:15 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Ah, sign idea:

  HATE
TYRANNY
  NOT
 GAYS

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by: Bill Ware @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 07:18:43 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Exactly right.

The LGBT community (as a whole, not just isolated individuals) is finally waking up to the fact that we are in a religious war.  Not against all religion but against the pre-eminent position religion holds in our society--and the tyranny that engenders.  

If these dweebs want to believe in their magic underwear, virgin births and their various other old wives' tales, fine.  But giving what are obviously crackpots the kind of power and "moral authority" (I love that one) they have in America makes no sense whatever.  Why are they always "in the mix," as Obama would say, when it comes to social policy?  It's the equivalent of having a society dominated by Bigfoot hunters and UFO "abductees."

That is quite palpably bad for any effort to build a modern, civilized nation, and it sure as hell isn't good for us gay folks.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 11:12:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

To The Senior LDS Hierarchy

We call upon those who have honest disagreements on this issue to urge restraint upon the extreme actions of a few that are further polarizing our communities and urge them to act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility towards each other.

Please explain something to me, because I am massively confused. How on God's green earth could you possibly even imagine the possibility of the LGBT community and the LDS church having anything like a spirit of mutual respect and civility after the act of civil, political and democratic barbarity you've just committed?

I'm genuinely struggling to understand the kind of mind that could conceive of such a possibility.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

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by: tavdy79 @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 18:29:00 PM CST

they don't really believe it.

they just want to play the victim and try to make us look like the aggressors.  common tactic used by the religious fRight.

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 18:35:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah, and nobody's buying what they're selling....

And they KNOW it. All stuff like this press release does is make our straight allies like Mirele that much angrier-just like us. I think this statement was a huge mistake on their part.
Oh-and just to comment on an earlier post:
[How on God's green earth could you possibly even imagine the possibility of the LGBT community and the LDS church having anything like a spirit of mutual respect and civility after the act of civil, political and democratic barbarity you've just committed?]
Tavdy79, that's a damn good question. I don't think there is a chance we can ever have a spirit of mutual respect and civility with those monsters. EVER.    

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 18:41:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Uh, because the men that make the decisions live in a bubble

The First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the General Authorities don't have much to do with non-Mormons. They work in organizations that have only Mormon employees and when they do get out and about (less occasionally now), it's pretty much to the fawning, adulatory faithful who believe every word that comes out of their mouths.

Don't believe it? Just last month there was something of a blow-up when Boyd K. Packer, who is next in line to be president of the Mormon Church, made some statements at his home ward (congregation)on Oct. 12. These statements were apparently recorded surreptitiously, transcribed and, at the speed of light, around the world in no time flat. It even made the Salt Lake Tribune (see here:  http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci... The Church's response was:  

 The apostle's office at LDS Church headquarters in downtown Salt Lake City received so many queries about the speech that a secretary recorded a message, repeating that "the report of his talk is not accurate," and urged members to follow the LDS First Presidency's 2004 advice never to distribute notes of a General Authority's speech without authorization.

In short, every word that drips from the lips of the prophets, seers and revelators (particularly the living prophet, not the dead guys) is God's truth and treasured accordingly. When I was an active member, I used to hear regularly that the talks we heard from the General Authorities at twice-yearly Conference were our marching orders for the next six months, no matter how generally banal and boring those talks were. Therefore, if the prophet says to campaign against those evil gays trying to interfere with marriage, lots and lots of sheeple will get in line.

So, to get back to the point, Thomas S. Monson, the rest of the apostles and the General Authorities are probably gobsmacked because they have never met people like us and have no idea that we people DO take our rights seriously. And the people that do surround them are basically Yes Men, guys who aren't going to tell God's Anointed Ones that what they're doing is going to cause huge problems.

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by: Mirele @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 19:09:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Which makes it really easy for these folks to get conned, too.

Like that guy who sold the Mormon Church that letter supposedly written by Joseph Smith. VERY interesting, Mirele. I bet these guys really thought they'd get away with this. That also explains that press release saying they're allegedly not anti-gay. They're panicking.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 19:35:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

They are a bit, but they have a major tool on their side,

  FOX NEWS.  One target that needs to be of our protests.  

A Chant,  

FOX NEWS HELPS SPEAD THE HATE,
BY SPEWING LIES OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.

Fox News with the help of Bill O the Clown and the rest keep spewing the crap without an opposing view.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 01:49:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Be Careful

Many Christians support gay marriage. That's why I specifically addressed my comment above to the LDS church's leaders, not Mormons in general - as Mirle's blog post makes pretty damned clear, many Mormons are horrified at the actions of the LDS leadership.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

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by: tavdy79 @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 03:18:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That is what I am saying,

  My little chant wasn't clear enough, needs some fine tuning.  But this whole line we are a Center Right nation is what is driving a lot of the false hoods.  I am well aware many people of many Faiths disagree with the leadership of their religions.

 My point being is that 100 years ago, religious factions told about the end of the world.  More and more the end is coming closer.  It is the fear of the end of the world that many use to keep the sheeple in line.  With more of these leaders saying it is close, in my lifetime, younger people are not buying it.  So they ramp up the fear.  Many have ramped it up that they are past the point of no return.

 The unity of the population removes the power of the church leaders. Religion was the tool of division between the races, and in many parts of the bible belt it still is.  Divided they have power.

 The LGBT is the last division they have to exploit.  Their all or nothing approach to prop 8 is the proof.  The redefining of histroy is falling apart.  Information can be shared to quickly.

 There is a lot on the line regarding prop 8 and where it stands in the courts. If the court rules again based on the constitution, the religious right is toast until they can completely do away with and replace it with their bible.

 But they are fighting themselves, blaming Islam, another religion they claim to be different, just because many countries use Islam as the bad example of what happens when a bad religion has power over the government.  People need to question what are some doing with their power of the so-called good religion?  Oppressing citizens of their own country.  Again, as you point out, the leaders. And it all goes to prove religion needs to stay the hell out of government, and people are waking up.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 00:30:01 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It's actually worse than that

The Mormon church has been preaching about the "end times" for decades. Every member is supposed to keep a two year supply of food, water and consumables like toilet paper and paper towels. They teach that civilization will crumble, there will be looting and cannibalism, really horrific stuff. They differ from most apocalyptic religions only in the order of the things. No rapture, just decay, until the beginning of the Millennium. That's 1,000 years of peace and happiness until Judgment Day when all will be called back, graves will open, everyone will be judged and the Earth destroyed by Satan in the battle of Armageddon.

My parents have converted their entire basement - four good sized bedrooms and a play room - all into storage. Every room has floor to ceiling shelves filled with canned goods, wheat stored with dry ice to prevent spoilage, one room has nothing but 55 gallon drums of water. Things like the SCoC ruling just reinforce the idea of the end times. The world is getting progressively more wicked and profane until it implodes. They live for this stuff, because it means the Millenium draws nigh.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 20:57:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Um, YIPES!

Jeebus, and I thought only the Evangelical charismatic types like Paul and Jan Crouch were loony..the leadership of the Mormons sound twice as nuts as any of the Dobson crew-in fact, these guys sound more like Fred Phelps.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 21:39:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

well, at least now

i know whose door to knock on if i need supplied after an earthquake. ;)

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 01:50:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Brought to you by

The same G*D DAMN a$$wipes who blocked the end of life decision of Terri Schiavo's husband, the same G*D DAMN a$$wipes who blew up women's clinics, and stalked doctors and nurses, the same G*D DAMN a$$wipes who ended ALL school groups to block Gay Straight Alliance clubs

b*tch....get OFF my dress!

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 22:12:48 PM CST

This is more than a "difference of opinion."

I could deal with that, what the Church has done, and I think it's starting to dawn on them, is something far deeper and far graver. It seems no one told them what groups of angrily motivated human beings are capable of. I think they're starting to realize they've screwed up big time.

Buck up, guys! At least you had this one (pyrrhic) victory, right? Enjoy it while you can.

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by: Bachalon @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 22:18:15 PM CST

Yep. Let's make sure they wind up

losing more in tithes than they spent.  

Remember what FDR said, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." Have you written/called a congress-critter today? 8.25, 6.21

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by: Jacques @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 22:27:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I posted this at the Salt Lake Trib

ARTICLE: LDS leaders, gay activists condemn attack on churches.

http://www.tribtowns.com/comme...

It would be nice if we could all sit around and discuss this rationally. But...

  Parable.

  In grade school and junior high, I was a bully-magnet due to my inherent and ultimately un-hide-able femininity. Until 6th grade, I ran from confrontations, but I was caught and teased-tortured-terrorized-beaten anyway.

  One rainy day, I couldn't avoid the bully clique as they walked by me in the crowded hall during recess. As each passed, they would sneak-punch me hard. The clique's low man on the ladder got 'brave', and began wailing on me openly. I lost it and, in a focused rage, turned him from aggressor to aggressed. It took two teachers to pull me off him.

  For two years, I did not back down from fights. I avoided them if possible, but if the opponent 'insited', I obliged. I won at least two thirds of the fights. Those I lost, the 'winner' paid for with some sort of mark. "The p***y gave you a fat lip!" "But I gave him a black eye..." "But the p***y GAVE YOU A FAT LIP!!!! (ha ha ha...)"

  I received a spanking from the principal for each fight. It taught me that the principal was a hypocrite. I also learned that I could not trust the other adults to protect me, or even take my side in the altercations. I believe some secretly felt that an effeminate boy 'deserved' the attention, and were secretly hoping it would 'beat the gay out' of me.

  After two years, the fights and challenges finally ended. So did the name-calling, and a majority of people actually showed me respect. Those that thought otherwise knew to keep it to themselves.

  When we advanced from junior high to high school, I appeared instantly on the radars of the bullies from the other junior high schools, and experienced three weeks of probing from them.

  But the probing fell off and disappeared during the fourth week. A friend told me years later the bullies from my school had told the new bullies about my performance in junior high, and the new bullies decided I wasn't worth it.

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by: Hazumu @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 23:16:24 PM CST

Yup. That reminds me of a similar story...

I used to live in Orange County, CA-a racist, sexist and homophobic shithole of an area. When I first came out, and older guy told me about a rash of gay bashings that went on in the city of Garden Grove, which at the time was more or less the area for lower middle class gay men and lesbians. Anyway, a bunch of the guys got together and either jumped into gay bashings or went looking for a straight guy to bash. Yeah, I know. It's rather nasty behavior-but these guys were desperate to stop the violence against them, so they did what they did. What happened? The bashings stopped. One of the men involved was later told that word had spread to the frat houses at both universities in OC (UC Irvine and Cal State Fullerton)that gay bashing in Garden Grove would endanger their health.
So, in other words-the only way to stop the bullying is to fight back.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 23:38:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

As the great Billie Holiday reminded us,

God bless the child that's got his own.  Can it be a coincidence that a bisexual artist understood that?

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 11:22:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Everybody just breathe: See you at the demonstrations tomorrow

Everybody's made some good points.  Anger has the same kind of stages as does death.  We scream, we threaten, we promise, we bite, we moan, etc., etc.  We GLBT kids may have been a bit excessive this past two weeks -- I don't think we were excessively angry, but some of us were very aggressive in expressing their -- how shall we say, "disappointment" in our Mormon cousins financial backing of Yes on 8, just as we were equally annoyed by those awful "christianist" types who so selectively follow the tenants of their god and religion.

Where was I?

Oh yeah.  The first thing we do is get together on Saturday in our magnificent splendor and celebrate who we are in the face of that awful vote.  See you there.  If you're in San Francisco, look for me and my friends to be gathering on the steps of the state building at 350 McAllister.

See you  there!

Houston Bridges

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by: Houston @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:16:29 AM CST

Excessive?

Bullshit. Anger over having CIVIL RIGHTS ripped from us is NOT-repeat-NOT EXCESSIVE. It's necessary. You might enjoy being shit on repeatedly by the so called 'majority', but I SURE AS FUCK DON'T. This is not just a temper tantrum over nothing. THIS IS FUCKING SERIOUS. This is not the time to sit around singing "We Shall Overcome". This is the time to FIGHT BACK. I'm not gonna BREATHE.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:24:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The anger is certainly not excessive

It is the EXPRESSION of our anger that is in danger of becoming excessive. Show your rage, just don't take it too far.

Fetch my pearls, I need to clutch them!

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by: RainbowPhoenix @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:30:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Exactly, Rainbow. Thank you.

I didn't mean to snap your head off, Houston. Let me explain why I think the rage over this is important.
First, I'm a history nerd. And proud of it. My main points of interest are the Second World War and the African American civil rights movement. I say this for a reason-bear with me here.
Do you think that MLK Jr would have been able to gain the concessions he did from the White power structure of the 1960's if he didn't have Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam to deal with? I don't think so-and here's why;
MLK was able to go to those old white guys, point to Malcolm X and say, "You can deal with me, or you can deal with HIM." We all know there was no way in hell those good ol' boys would have dealt with Malcolm X-and there was no way in hell Malcolm would have dealt with them, either.
The militants and the moderates need each other. Without the militants, the moderates can't gain concessions from the power structure, whatever it is. Without the moderates, the militants can't achieve their ultimate goal unless they DO get violent-and we all know violence really doesn't work.
It's MY theory, but I also know I may be full of it.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:43:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thank you. I disagree with you on the "violence doesn't

work" part, last time I looked, we won over the Third Reich.

I think that's where the anti-Iraq war movement went wrong, we had no Weather Underground, no Yippies throwing dollar bills onto the trading floor, no threat to hold over the Man; "Start this war, and you will lose money." And indeed, they started the war, and it's been very profitable.

What makes this fight different is that we can win it, if we are militant enough, not with actual violence, but with economic violence. Our goal should be to peel away sympathetic Mormons/Catholics in large numbers, so that five years from now, the Mormon/Catholic coffers are still reeling
from this action.

Five years from now, I want church accountants saying, "our tithes are almost back up to where they were before we took on Prop 8. We must never again try to openly influence public policy in America."

And if it doesn't look like we can achieve our goals financially, we burn the SLC temple to the ground. Just kidding. Really.

Remember what FDR said, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." Have you written/called a congress-critter today? 8.25, 6.21

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by: Jacques @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 20:44:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Good point, Jacques...

And I probably should have clarified that point more succinctly. Also, it's true that the Weather Underground and the Yippies had more to do with ending the Vietnam war than most any other group. Also, I really think the boycotts and other economic action WILL make a huge difference.
I don't think we'll have to burn the SLC temple to the ground-the Mormons are running scared over this already. I think they know they made a big mistake by messing with us.  

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by: Mindyinlongbeach @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 22:02:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Don't characterize someone else's anger as excessive

Our civil rights have been stripped from us because some "christians" don't like how we fuck. That's the entire reason right there. You don't get to say whose anger is excessive after that. I don't think my anger is excessive at all. I actually think I've been quite good at swallowing it down under six gulps of hard-willed silence to not drive anyone around me crazy on a daily basis.

This election season, just as in 2004, 2000, 1996, and 1992, has shown us yet again how sick, perverted, and evil these people, these self-professed "christians" are. They're so obsessed with how other consenting adults achieve orgasm that they spread vicious lies and hate in order to see us dehumanized under the law

That's not cause for "disappointment" or "equal annoyance." That's cause for a lot of rage.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 00:57:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"should be deplored by people of goodwill"

Yeah I misplaced my GOODWILL, maybe it's where my MOTHERF*CKING constitutional right to Equal Protection Under the Law ....went

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 01:44:29 AM CST

I was a former Mormon

The church frequently talks about times in history when members of the church have stood up to unfair majorities or governments.  The Jews stood up to the unfair Egyptian authorities.  How is this different?  If something is wrong, we have a right to protest the majority.  They would say the same with the Holocaust and Jim Crow laws in retrospect.

I am sick of people equating homosexuality with behavior.  Even O'Reilly did that the other day on his show.  One can be gay and not engage in sex.  This is really the issue--they see homosexuality as entirely action/behavior-based, so they do not see how they are wrong on this matter.

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by: Johnnywhynot @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 02:36:39 AM CST

History, they teach history?

  There was just some bishop saying that when the courts ruled in 1967 that banning inter-racial marriage was unconstitutional and facts show if those marriages where put up to a popular vote, 70% of Americans than would have kept the ban in place.  This bishop says that isn't the way it was.  Good Grief,

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 02:51:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

They do NOT teach history.

Or at least, they teach it very selectively.  The last time a pair of Mormon missionaries came to my door (well-scrubbed fair-haired boys--my type, dammit--so frustrating), I asked them to tell me what they had been taught about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.  You should have seen the befuddled expressions on their faces, like the Three Stooges trying to figure out how to eat an artichoke.  They had never heard of it--one of the most significant events in their own history.  Their "teachers" hadn't even bothered to try and spin it, apparently.

So I tried to explain the massacre to them.  They refused to believe me; I had to be making it up, they insisted.  Their Mormon programming was so thorough they couldn't even process something that countered their church's party line.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah

I told some missionaries last Saturday about their racist past.  They gave me this stupid answer about how all the prophets had prayed to stop the racism, but they were told not to do so until 1978.  They told me that the church was fighting to hide slaves, etc.  They told me the church was the leader in the abolitionist movement.  All of this is revisionist history.

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by: Johnnywhynot @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 14:30:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

They would be wise to avoid my door

Not much chance of Morons knocking on my door, but it would not be a wise idea unless they are the fair-haired types that are going to drop trou and bend over.  Otherwise, they will be find out just how extremely unwelcome they are.

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by: So Left I'm Right @ Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 23:12:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

With firmness in the right

Give up? Never. Not ever. Not one time. Not me.

p.s., nonvolence is a revolutionary tool, and, besides being one of our core values,  it wins.

What a day, what a day for an auto-da-fe

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by: revbob @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 02:57:00 AM CST

When the initial HEAT of our anger towards LDS elders fades

Replace it with a BONE CHILLING ICE COLD INDIFFERENCE towards Utah tourism and Utah products.

No one holds a candle next to gays in doing INDIFFERENCE, we can do that sh*t to DEATH.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sat Nov 15, 2008 at 21:29:05 PM CST