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This kind of activism isn't helping

by: Pam Spaulding

Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 07:15:00 AM EST


Joe.My.God: Chaos In San Francisco As Anti-Gay Christianists Are Chased Out Of The Castro. Police had to escort a group of prosyletizers out of the middle of a protest. In turn, claims of threats of verbal and physical abuse have been made by people of faith - claims that gay men kicked and sexually assaulted them during the above-mentioned event.

All the bible-beaters need are examples of this kind to distract the public from the institutionalized discrimination that occurred on Nov. 4.

And mind you, some of the claims of victimhood may be falsified from time to time to deflect attention from the role churches played in Prop 8, but quite frankly, I don't have a great deal of confidence that a slice of our community -- in the outrage and hurt about what went down -- understands or cares about the role of non-violent resistance plays in legitimizing the cause at hand.

Yes, religion has played a toxic role in this civil rights rollback, but remember those in the faith community who support us. The better part of wisdom is to take a page from Dr. King -- think twice about whether your actions help or hurt the organic, grassroots movement that has emerged. This energy needs to be channeled into positive action, because we don't have control over how it will be spun by the other side.
Pam Spaulding :: This kind of activism isn't helping
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This kind of activism isn't helping | 194 comments
I disagree
Why must we do the PC thing and go quietly into the night, go to the back of the line and wait for a turn that will never come?

If the Civil Rights movement of the 60's kept their mouth shut and didn't make waves do you think we would have elected President Obama?  No.  It took Fire Hoses and Dogs and Riot Police to make a feeble attempt at shutting down a people who sought their Equality.  Their Birth Rights.  That's what it's gonna take us to do as well.

On November 6th I was so sad.  Here I am in San Francisco and I'm not even Equal.  Passing Castro & Market on my way to work that morning the Gigantic Pride Flag was at Half Mast with a Large Black Ribbon waving at the top of the mast.  I was so depressed that I started crying at my desk over the passage of Prop 8.

So now I'm supposed to go back in my closet, sit in my room, wait at the back of the bus for someone to hand me my Equality and while waiting I'm supposed to welcome the people that think I am less human than they are into my neighborhood, to stand at my door, and tell me why I am less human and less equal than they are?  HELL NO!

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

Noone is saying "go the back of the line."
I took the post to mean the following:

1. Peaceful protest keeps you and your cause on the right side of the law. (arrest for blocking a door or something for a higher moral cause is fine IMO... arrest for tipping over a car or beating someone up is really not morally defensible).

2. Because of the hateful stereotypes out there, sometimes oppressed minorities need to "rise above." That doesn't mean silence or an end to social and political action. But it does mean NOT being violent (except in self-defense) and not stooping to their level. Seriously, IF (and its a big IF) one of the counter-protesters had, I dunno, their butt grabbed by a protester, how does that negate the fearmongers who say that homosexuals are sexual predators?

3. There are ways to counteract without resorting to violence. I REALLY wanted a chorus of kazzoos on Saturday to drown out the 6 (seriously, 6) counter-protestors who finally rolled out of bed at 3 PM to give a really disjointed message about needing to be Born Again. I suddenly envisioned 25 people w/ kazoos standing in front of them humming "Abide With Me."

[ Parent ]
Where was the Violence?
They where yelling at the people that invaded their neighborhood to tell them there is something wrong with them.  Chasing troglodytes out of your home is NOT Violence.  

Raised Voices chanting "Stay Out of The Castro" is not Violence.   It's Americans standing up for their Rights!


Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

[ Parent ]
surf over to Joe's
and read the allegations. What was taped was possibly not the entire "action." Did it occur or not? I wasn't there, but I'm sure someone was who could confirm one way or the other. All I'm saying is that this the shot across the bow has been launched and our enemies are well-versed in using our public anger against us. We don't need to hand it to them.
[ Parent ]
Allegations
It wasn't long before the violence turned to perversion. They were touching and grabbing me, and trying to shove things in my butt, and even trying to take off my pants - basically trying to molest me.

Does anyone actually believe that?  The Right Wing haters have made an Industry out of lying.  I'm not about to begin believing them now.

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

[ Parent ]
It's not about the specific "allegations"
Which the post here, and I concur, notes are flimsy at best (part of a fevered imagination, likely) and can and will be exposed as fraudulent.

But it's a warning and a reminder to people whose emotions ARE riding high right now (because we're people, dammit) to moderate their own behavior IF necessary.

Don't GIVE anyone ammunition, even verbal threats, because we all know they can and will be used and distorted.

[ Parent ]
We can't...
We can be angry...  We can be bewildered at the ignorance of voters.  We can be furious at the people that helped spread lies about Prop 8.  But what we can't do is alienate supporters and make them feel like we really are crazy by going nuts in the streets.  

I have watched friends and family start to shy away from supporting us.  I have watched the comments on the boards shift from "Why do the Yes On 8 people care?" to "Gays should have never stuck their nose where it didn't belong - in traditional marriage..."  

We are losing support, and running a bunch of people off of "pink turf" is not helping.  We can't scare people into believing that we are right, we have to CONVINCE them...

Protests are great, but if you get in a shouting match, or start having violent confrontations, the only thing that gets done is the people you are fighting are more convinced than ever that they are right, and the people in the middle start to think we are crazy...

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
I understand the frustration
I'll be the first to admit that I'd love nothing more than to kick some self-righteous fundies butt right now.

However, regarding this:

It took Fire Hoses and Dogs and Riot Police to make a feeble attempt at shutting down a people who sought their Equality.

Remember, the black folks who got the hoses turned on them were peacefully protesting.  It was obvious here who the bad guys were and people were appalled by it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't defend ourselves, and if some nut came at me while I was peacefully protesting, I'd probably take a swing; however, if we go out looking for a fight, we're only going to look bad.

The media is not on our side.  The general public is not on our side.  The police are NOT on our side.  We have to be 10 steps ahead and thinking first, getting physical second.

[ Parent ]
They were also breaking the law
and honsetly if a group of LGBT's staged a sit in at the Temple in Salt Lake City I'd drive there to join them.

We've had enough.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
This is just an opinion
but I don't think the Rev. King's movement would have achieved the success it did without the influence of Malcom X or the Black Panthers.

I don't know that I'd participate in a demonstration like the one in the video, but I certainly understand the anger involved. I've been to the Castro and seen people like these. They were tolerated and ignored. After Prop 8, it doesn't surprise me in the least that some are finding tolerance for their hatred is a limited commodity these days.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

we don't have an MLK -- that's the big problem
The anger may be justified, the reaction is not. Of course Malcolm X and the Panthers were necessary, but as far as I can see there is no MLK present in our movement to present a counter to this sort of behavior that will cycle around YouTube ad infinitum.

That's the big problem here - we do not have any visible, credible leadership on this issue in the wake of the election results.

In the absence of that, the chaos and/or potential violence presents a movement without focus, only reaction out of emotion. We cannot have a headless movement on such a specific issue that must be addressed in the courts in the end, not only reactive behavior in the streets. It allows the other side, which is incredibly focused and organized in its bigotry, to use the volatile reactions against us.

[ Parent ]
We did have an MLK
He was assassinated in 1978.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
[ Parent ]
and that was 30 years ago
Harvey Milk isn't here, and the reality is we cannot address the problems of today with a headless movement. That vacuum is creating a big problem.
[ Parent ]
I watched a San Diego marcher toss the contents of a bottle of water...

...on a Yes On Prop 8 counter-protester, and then watched another Yes On Prop 8 counter-protester arrested after lunging at a marcher holding a flag. Both sides were "hot" -- both from weather and from recent events

The reality is that both sides of the issue are seeing bad behavior by their supporters...I think the "temperature" of the protestors on both sides is extremely high. I'm honestly surprised that the vast majority of the 1,000,000 marriage equality supporters stayed peaceful this past weekend -- I'm honestly surprised that this hasn't devolved into a Stonewall 1.0 version of a violent uprising in at least one of the dozens of marriage equality protest locations.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

The amount
of gall it took to go into the castro with their crap is astounding.  They're very fortunate they were able to simply walk out.
Codswallop
The Religious Reich has already proven they have no problems with outright lies - we simply need to await the time when these fishy "claims" of physical abuse are exposed for the codswallop they are.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
Codswallop?
Did you just learn that word and have been dying to use it in a sentence?

LMAO!  just teasing.

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

[ Parent ]
Note To Self:
Don't use British slang in posts - it confuddles the Americans!

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
[ Parent ]
Ya know
My boss is British and says the same thing to me too.  LOL.

But I was an NYC Native, so I confuddle him with Yiddish (The official language of NYC).  LOL

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende

[ Parent ]
My favorite britphamism is "knackered."

[ Parent ]
"Twaddle"
is our favorite nonsensical word here- equates to about the same. One of my husband's teachers at Saint Grottlesex was fond of writing it on reports he didn't find up to snuff.

A very good day is when I find something newsworthy to declare "TWADDLE!" before the spouse does...

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[ Parent ]
The whole situation is bollixed up.
We have a popular uprising,...with wide based LGBT community support.

The anger is genuine, the provocation of going into the Castro to prostyletise us is simply outrageous.

Remember, the respectable gays condemned Stonewall immediately...and then took over the movement, and we've not really gotten that far beyond Stonewall in nearly 40 years

This isn't simply a protest; it is an LGBT uprising under way.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
This is the truth
If coffee had been indeed thrown, why wasn't the results videoed? If there had been an assault, with all those police there, why wasn't a complaint filed?

You can't sit there and whine about persecution without proof. Plus, as I pointed out in the comments on the YouTube video, this is pretty mild "persecution." It's not like they were thrown to wild beasts, like Perpetua and Felicitas were back in 203 in Carthage.

However, I do think that the better thing to do would be to let these asshats come into the Castro and say their piece. After all, their bigotry needs to be exposed for all to see--and they need to be mocked for their hateful attitude. (Videoing these guys would be appropriate.) I know people have been out protesting at Mormon temples and wardhouses since Prop 8 and those have been pretty peaceful. But like Joe.My.God says, no touch, no assault, keep it cool, keep it nonviolent.

[ Parent ]
you just gave me an idea!
Folks in the Castro or other places where haters show up regularly need to make a giant picture frame cut-out with the name plate "Bigots in Full Regalia" and hold it in front of these groups.

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[ Parent ]
100% Behind You On That Lurleen
And it fits our meme. How should LGBT defend themselves? Stylishly, of course, and as dramatically as possible.

My yogi's got us doing Yamas now...eye-roller, I know...so I've got to be all ahimsa from now on--so unlike my personality, but hey, my shoulders are opening up! Hooray! Now, about those hips.

I just look for ways around violence now, and what you present is perfect.

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

[ Parent ]
WOW....
I am passing this one on to THe Sisters...

FABULOUS!

[ Parent ]
The Christains
are total liars period.  The cops formed a circle around them and totally protected them.  They are totally trying to play the victims game here and make the gays look evil.  I was there and never saw anyone kick, pee, or anything of the sort. There might have been one incident of coffee being tossed, but other than that there wasn't any violence and certainly not like one of them recounted over at Joe's blog.  Disgusting!
[ Parent ]
Hm,
They are totally trying to play the victims game here and make the gays look evil.

As if that were a new trick to them.

watashi no yomeiri wa doko desu ka

[ Parent ]
Grow up.
Violence is such a childish reaction.  Great, you vent your spleen, but what have  you done to advance gay rights?  Squat.  

Look: we know we're on the side of justice and of history.  Let's be secure in that knowledge, and then fight to change the hearts and minds of that great swath of citizens who want to do what's fair but are either fearful of what they don't know/understand, or are very confused about what civil marriage is (and how it is already not at all related to religious marriage).  Heck, there's a ton of confusion among gay people about that distinction.  

Acting out in violent ways will only make gay people scarier, and lose us all our rightful moral high ground.  

Dr. King has some appropriate words on this topic, and the substance doesn't depend on whether you believe in God or not (I don't, and I think this is one of the more powerful sermons ever on moving civil rights forward.)

This Kind of Activism Isn't Helping?
Pam, you have to be referring to the Christionists who invaded the peace and dignity of The Castro on a Friday night.  The Christionists were not there, as claimed, simply to sit on a sidewalk and worship God.  No, they were there, in The Castro, to denigrate and accuse gay men and lesbians of sin, moral degeneracy, and psychological disorder - to be cured by their particular brand of religion.  The Christionists were activists for their hatred of LGBT people.

And the Christionists' Kind of Activism Is NOT Helping!

Had I been there, I would have yelled and screamed and blown my whistle.  I would NOT have touched them BUT they may have feared my touching them from the anger in my face.

I do NOT believe the Christionists' report in You Tube.  It makes no sense that their men were having their pants pulled down and objects inserted up their rectums and the women kicked and punched - YET when asked by police to leave, they wanted to stay?  Give me a break.  Makes no sense.  They lie.  Christionists have always lied in these matters.

I am NOT speaking of the Religious Righteous of all faiths - especially Christian and Jewish in California.  Men and women of faith have stood up with LGBT community throughout this Prop H8 Campaign.  I was proud to rally with Religious Righteous brothers and sisters this past Saturday in Chico.

But these Dominionists-Christionists should stop forcing their hatred on the LGBT community.  If they want to exercise their free speech on the sidewalk, they can expect a backlash if I am around.  I have had enough!  

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

see my above comment
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

If they want to exercise their free speech on the sidewalk, they can expect a backlash if I am around

Free speech doesn't extend to violence. You don't have to believe any and all reports; as I said, some will be fabricated, but as we saw with the N-bomb being dropped on our own, the anger isn't being channeled appropriately and it bites us in the ass. This is no exception - you give them a reason to portray themselves as victims, and they will.

[ Parent ]
What Pam Said...
Or to put it another way, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose."

Free speech was originally intended to set government's limits on citizens' speech, and it's been adapted to the rest of the public sphere.

You can stand in front of a sign. You can't rip the sign up.

Yelling, screaming, and blowing a whistle is all free speech (unless it's a really loud whistle - there could be decibel violations, I dunno). And they can infer all they like from your attitude as to your intentions. But if you're in jail for actually hurting them, how does that help "The Cause?"

[ Parent ]
We are telling the world that we have had enough.
The line has at last been crossed, the finite endpoint of our ability to grindingly endure our second or third class citizenship in America has been exceeded.

We are not going to take it anymore; we will not slink back to watch the Domionists celebrate triumphs over the "sinful" gays, we will not be denied, we will not be marginalised, and we will not be quiet.

The days of awaiting a statemtn from the HRC deploring an outcome are over. We will do our own deploring, and more than that, we will object, and object loudly.

We deny that we are to be labelled sinners upon the sole basis of whom we love.

WE OBJECT!

We deny that we are daemons, a danger to the family and to America.

WE OBJECT!

We deny that our rioghts can only exist at the whim of a popular vote fixed by the monies of a Church that is gradually permitting polygamy to return whilst grinding same sex unions down as "perverse and detrimental"

WE OBJECT!

No more the mild and meek subservients, we, as Mrs Banks said.

We are radicalising and we shall not be stopped, nor should we heed voices calling upon us to return to the weary victims that we were after each defeat, til this one.
Time to be loud, time to seize our rights into our own hands...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
agreed that violence was inevitable
As loathsome as I find physical assault and the destruction of property, I embrace violence against oppression as an understandable part of the spectrum of response, as I believe that it makes "voices of reason" more palatable.  QISC noted what I have observed regarding the relationship between Dr. King's movement and that led by Black Nationalists including Malcolm X, though Malcolm softened his rhetoric in last few months of life.  Instead of distancing ourselves from the violence, we need to instruct our oppressors that those acts represent one extreme outcome of oppression and hate, with internalized self-loathing at the other pole -- non-violence protest stands in the middle.  

Dr. King had these words of condolence for Betty Shabbaz following the murder of her husband: "While we did not always see eye to eye on methods to solve the race problem, I always had a deep affection for Malcolm and felt that he had a great ability to put his finger on the existence and the root of the problem. He was an eloquent spokesman for his point of view and no one can honestly doubt that Malcolm had a great concern for the problems we face as a race."

again...
I believe that it makes "voices of reason" more palatable.

We don't have a Dr. King out there to present as a voice of reason. Our orgs have zero credibility since they didn't respond with any calls to march post-Prop 8, it was organically organized and thus has no representative to speak for this street movement.

[ Parent ]
Read the comments at JMG
This topic is up over 50 comments at JMG, and they are all over the map.  
This kind of activism is INDEED helping!
They expect us to be hopeless floundering little victims who won't fight back. Well that's OVER!!!!!

Meanwhile . . .

"Salon" farts in our face again (and is answered with a few well-chosen words from yours truly.)

it depends on what you mean by 'fight back'
I think this JMG commenter said it best.
To those who believe the "reap what you sow" justification for violence, that is the same logic Wallace used at the University of Alabama (if they don't come here there won't be a problem), and the same used in domestic violence (if she didn't make me crazy mad, I wouldn't have beat the tar outta her): my violent actions are never my fault, I was provoked.
If someone attacks us, and we attack back, we will be understood. If we start the violence, we will not be understood. The implication that the violence started long ago on their part will never be a winning argument. The short-lived satisfaction of purging years of anger will harm the long-term goals.
It's not that there will not be any violence or actions that cause a setback, it's that there isn't anyone to lead.
[ Parent ]
Your comment reminded me of this, Pam...


George Harris sticks carnations in gun barrels during an antiwar demonstration at the Pentagon in 1967. (By Bernie Boston -- The Washington Evening Star)

It took another 6 years to get out of Vietnam... but it happened.
[ Parent ]
stolen bible moments
i love the part where the fundie alleges that someone took his/her bible.  i thought they were trying to bring jesus to the unclean?  a real christain evangelist would rejoice that someone would voluntarily take the word of the lord, since they might read it and "see".

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This post is ridiculous
My husband and I were applauding and jumping up and down when we saw the news report depicting these morons being chased out of OUR neighborhood.

This has been going on for months - many months - and the Christianists have been mostly ignored, just like the bullshit amendments that have been passed all over the country have been ignored.  We sit still and take the abuse from our bigoted fellow citizens and from our ambivalent and complicit "allies" who just allow the abuse to persist.

How long are we supposed to just sit still and take it until we respond?  And then what should our response be?  Pam (and Joe and others) think we should just calmly stand up and shake our finger at the people who are poking us in the eye robbing us of our citizenship and then have the balls to LIE about being the victim of abuse and/or injustice.

I'm sorry, but no matter how calm, cautious, and reasonable you want to be three days after a conflict occurs that you observe on video - out of context and without experiencing the history of the incident - it is completely offensive to pass judgment upon the reactions of the fed up residents of the Castro.  

Stop with the control freak / knee-jerk hand wringing and be happy that someone finally took a stand after months of being exposed to the passive aggressive Christianist baiting by these charlatans.  

No one was hurt.  No one was assaulted.  No one was arrested.  Stop spreading lies and blaming us for standing up for ourselves.

For Christs sake its no wonder it takes so goddamned long for justice when we can't even defend each other when WE are the one's that are being attacked.  

Maybe we should take a cue from the No on 8 campaign and just hide behind the curtain and hope no one sees us and maybe someone will know who we are and why we should be respected without explaining why or daring to demand dignity.

Imagine if me and my husband stood on a street corner in the Marina District in SF (extremely hetero on a Friday night) making out and asking passers by if they wanted to join us.  Would we have been beaten?  Would we have been at fault if we were?

Some of you hand wringers should try that sometime and write about your experience with proselytizing to the heteros on their turf here at Pams.  Let us know if you experience months of turned cheeks before you are chased out of the neighborhood...with a police escort.

your use of the extremes in your arguments
doesn't help you make your case. Allowing our community to be baited (and you know the right will do it) into actions that will make their case that we are the ones who are intolerant isn't helpful in the long run. Nothing in what I posted suggested we just sit back and fold our hands.

I suppose Gandhi was an ineffective activist by your measure.

[ Parent ]
Pam honey, Gandhi was assassinated. So was Harvey Milk
Your point?  
[ Parent ]
that doesn't negate the tactic of non-violence
I'm surprised so many feel these are useless or impotent tactics. Diane upthread linked to Dr. King's some appropriate words on this topic. I don't see what the point of mentioning those assassination means in terms of the movement, after all, Malcolm was assassinated as well. That doesn't negate those tactics either.

The issue is our movement lacks a focal point voice and our organizations are pitiful in terms of a response to Prop 8. That's a reality.  

[ Parent ]
Tactics on whose part?
Who cast the stone, here?  Why are you blaming the people that fought for the peace and safety of their neighborhood?

We should wait until we have a leader until anyone responds to street level harassment or legislative / electoral injustice?

If you haven't noticed, it's gonna a long cold day in hell before a leader steps forward that is worthy of attracting the support of the majority of the LGBT population.  We just finished participating in the election of a man that won't stand up for us without first wearing dark sunglasses and wig to avoid being recognized.  

In the meantime, lets try to decide if the residents of the Castro that peacefully - if forcibly - defended their neighborhood were more like Ghandi or Malcom X.  

Everyone put a name in a hat to decide who gets to be the next leader to be assassinated.  

If a few shots were fired on Friday night I suppose there would be cause for concern.  But that didn't happen did it?  No one was arrested, were they?  Are there any charges pending?  

Stop making a case for our opponents.  
 

[ Parent ]
This can be the beginning of our French Revolution
Yes, it is leaderless, but our leaders have sold us out so many times as to be wholly non credible.

This is the voice of a people who for far too long have been oppressed, been marginalised, been the victims of violence, derision and of ridicule.

I am married; I have had enough of their defining us out of America.

This is our time, we asked for equality and they denied it to us. Now we want justice for the entire series of wrongs that they have inflicted upon us and never answered for.


I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
The excesses of the French Revolution
provoked an extreme reaction in much of Europe. The excesses of the French Revolution were used as an excuse for repressive regimes all over Europe, in Britain, in Russia, etc, to adopt much harsher repressive measures.

Not to mention that many, including those who were on the side of the revolution in France, were killed, by their fellow revolutionaries.

[ Parent ]
I am not proposing a Terror
rather, the spontaneous aspect of it.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid
[ Parent ]
OK
I responded as I did, because of the tenor of the thread. I disagree vehemently that physical violence is going to get the community anywhere.
[ Parent ]
It works when there is no alternative
so don't condemn out of hand those considering more confrontational methods, still short of violence.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid
[ Parent ]
That assumes there *is* no alternative.


____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
[ Parent ]
I'm not against confrontational methods
I'm certainly NOT arguing for sitting around, holding hands and singing "we shall overcome", "kumbaya" etc.

I am against PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. Note, I have nothing against financial violence, ie, boycotting business who do not agree with full and equal rights. I'm all for starting to hold the feet of supposedly friendly politicians to the fire, and putting them under much more critical scrutiny.

As for there being no alternative, this is the crux of the issue. How do you decide that there is no alternative?

Furthermore, when one is angry, it can often seem that there are no alternatives, and that physical violence is the only option.

The argument for non(physical) violence that proponents of non violence make, isn't simply based on naivete, and idealism.

It is also based on realism. A minority group that lacks the numbers / power to overpower their opponents, CAN choose to fight using different weapons, and win: persuasion, dialogue, discourse, and TIME. Over time, the GLBT community is winning. Young people, not just in the US, but all over the world, are far more tolerant than their grandparents, or parents. They might make "gay" jokes etc, but, when pressed on whether the GLBT community, as humans, has a right to full and equal rights, and not to be treated as "deviants", or sub human, the majority of young people are on the side of full and equal rights.

Yes, I understand that "in the long run, we're all dead". Still, the GLBT community IS winning. Things are much better now than they were 30, 20, years ago.

Up top, someone made an analogy about children, ie to get their way, children throw tantrums etc. I'd argue that that is PRECISELY what the bigots want the GLBT community to do. To act like children, or much better for the bigots, thugs / criminals. Doing so makes it much easier for the bigots to demonise GLBTs, or, to present them as people who should not have full and equal rights, who need to be controlled, to be "cured".

[ Parent ]
Dr. King's words
are conveniently forgotten when the target of prejudice is GLBTQ people.  Then, suddenly, prejudice is ok if your church teaches it.
[ Parent ]
Malcolm X was assassinated.
Your point?

FYI, Gandhi's tactics WORKED. India got it's independence. Gandhi wasn't assassinated by the British.

Also, some leaders in history that were assassinated: Gandhi, MLK, Malcolm X, Gaius Julius Caesar, Marcus Livius Drusus, JFK, RFK, etc.

Your point?

[ Parent ]
Uggh
its independence
[ Parent ]
I might remind you
I've been the target of death threats and attempts to have me fired from my job because of this blog, so I'm hardly sitting here as some sort of shrinking violet.
[ Parent ]
The don't dicourage the other flowers Pam
You havn't really lived until you've been targeted with a death threat. I've had several over the years.  
[ Parent ]
I haven't discouraged anyone not to respond to oppression
I just don't believe in physical violence as a long-term or short-term solution to this situation. Some here have called for that.

I understand that not everyone is going to agree with me, that's just my personal opinion.

I'd rather see the debate focused less on who is more just, or deal in oppression olympics than the fact we have a leaderless movement because our organizations have abdicated their roles.

[ Parent ]
We have great leaders
Michaelangelo Signorile, Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, Pam Spaulding, Augusten Burroughs, Patricia Nell Warren, Robin Tyler, Wayne Besen, writers, actors and musicians like Melissa Etheridge and hundreds of others on this and other blogs.  The old Biblical metaphors that MLK used wouldn't work on free thinking queers.  Many have tried to be the next MLK, Mel White, Troy Perry, Pointed hat Bishop Robinson, but so far the old teachings tweeked with Jesus loved the gays haven't worked.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.
Flood Youtube
Don't forget to post your comments on youtube.
These same idiots went to proselytize in Afghanistan
And then expected the U.S. military to rescue them when they got arrested by the Taliban.

Seriously, what the fuck were these people expecting? And if they were being assaulted and terrorized as they claimed, why didn't they accept the police escort out?

Christians lie and then play the martyr card and then they lie some more. That's what they're taught to do.

If we showed up in their neighborhoods and started making out on their street corners, they'd do worse than yell at us, and then tell the police that one of us touched their children and they were just "defending themselves."

By the way, how do we know this wasn't staged? I don't think any of these people are above staging a fake assault in the Castro just so they can have another excuse to lie and cry about being victimized by the evil gays.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

Such social changes
needs at least two groups arguing for the same issue: one needs to be perceived as radical (ooh! SCARY PEOPLE!) and one as moderate (oooh! SANE people).

look at the labor movement.
look at the suffrage movement.
look at the civil rights movement.
look at the AIDS awareness movement.

There has to be a foil.  If groups are trying to push a specific agenda, the groups have to have something the antis can move away from and compromise on.

shoot--look at the marriage vrs. civil unions.  Civil unions is seen as the "sane" compromise, while marriage is seen as the radical step.

MLK would not have been MLK without Malcolm X and vice versa.

But I do believe we should follow non-violence principles; image is everything :).  

agreed
And as I've repeated several times here, we're without a plan/leadership to counter the radical response. We can't wait until someone is hurt or killed on the other side to wake up and say we're shooting ourselves in the foot and have to attempt to undo damage to the cause by some angry, unfocused person who truly believes in whatever violence they perpetrate is deserved. We're all smarter than that.
[ Parent ]
I reject this wholeheartedly
I am not responsible for violence perpetrated against people who seek to be attacked for political purposes. Neither are you, neither is anyone else who advocates for our rights.

Those who physically attack, and those who participate in their own victimhood by demanding to be attacked, don't represent you, me or our movement.

Any other logic makes us hostages to extremism, in which we can be discredited by any lone whack job. And I'm not submitting to a framework of organizing under which the girl with the B carved in her face is running the show.



But wait, there's more!

[ Parent ]
Nevertheless
The actions of each LGBT person has an impact on the reputation of all LGBT people, and right now we cannot afford negative publicity. We need to make sure that violence is restricted to the "lone whack job" type, rather than mob violence.

The video above isn't particularly conclusive so for me but, given the Religious Reich's propensity for breaking the ninth commandment (do not bear false witness) I'm inclined to believe that there was no actual physical violence involved. The difficulty is going to be in proving it - and I hope to God the police were there in time to witness most of what went on.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

[ Parent ]
But remember
the caveat "the ends justify the means" was conveniently added to #9 at some unknown point. Takes away from it being a sin and all- kinda like a "Get Out Of Hell Free" card.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook

[ Parent ]
Literary Butchery
And of course this is an acceptable change to the eternal and unchanging word of Teh Lawd - because the ends justify the means.

Hmmm, thinking about it, China has a massive problem with over-population. Perhaps we should drop a load of Sarin in Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, Hong Kong and a few other major cities - after all, the ends justify the means.

/sarcasm

There are few phrases with the potential to be as chilling as that one.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

[ Parent ]
this was not a mob
This was the embodiment of outrage of a people who have had enough and have finally reached the point where they have begun to rise up against oppression. When the institutions of a government fail us, we are left with little choice, and I am far beyond using the carefully worded press releases of the HRC as an opiate to dull the pain or to create an illusion of progress.

We have had enough, and we are rising.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Love Ya Maura. Power to the People, Right On and all that. But.........

Look.  I'll admit it.  Part of me thrills to this sort of getting a piece of our own back.

But the savvy part of me knows that these Christian assclowns have every legal right to be on that sidewalk and in "our" neighborhoods, proselytizing their evil hearts out.  Indeed, "our" Castro has more straight people - and yeah, I'm sure, Christians - living there now than we could have imagined back in the 1960's.

Still another part of me - the now grey-haired, no longer very physically tough female who still dares to pass through strange neighborhoods alone and on foot at night - recoiled at the sight of a crowd of screaming 20-something young males hopped up on their testosterone and adrenaline trying to get as close as they can to these people as they chase them down the street screaming "fuck you bitch" before they head back to the bars, having accomplished just what, exactly, for The Revolution?  "Protecting our neighborhood"??  Balderdash.

Frankly, I'd be more impressed if they did some civil disobedience against institutions of oppression - chained themselves to some Mormon temple doors after nailing a manifesto to them,for instance - than to gift-wrap material like this for our enemies.

By the way, boys and girls, if you're into other types of actions, just remember: the most perfect revenge involves never being seen (much less photographed or video recorded), never discussing it afterward with anyone outside the action until the statute of limitations has run out (if ever), and never allowing your target to have the slightest clue as to the identity of the person(s) who wreaked havoc on their property.  I never said I was a saint.


[ Parent ]
and Lawrence King had the right to sit in a classroom
and Matthew Shepard had the right to go out for a drink
and hundreds of others now had the right to walks, to work and to live in homes, yet they lost them and too many lost their lives.

and those rights and lives were denied and destroyed by the hatred that these people like those preaching in Castro, incite.

I am sorry; they are the enemy of our equality, of our freedom, of our citizenship and in all too many cases of our very lives.

They want to roll back Lawrence.
They want to roll back Roe
Where exactly will it stop?

We have the right to resist
We have the right to protest
We have the right to strike back.
We have the right to demand more than equality now, we have the right to demand...justice..

This is NOT the time for timidity or for those who would take us back to quiet lobbying led by those "who know what is best for us."
We've not had a moment like this since Stonewall; let's not lose it to a compromising leadership elits as that moment was ultimately lost.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Excuse me
We did not chase them down the street screaming "Fuck you bitch." And another thing, there were just as many women there protesting them also. In fact, there was a straight couple standing right next to me shouting "Shame on you" right along with the gays.
[ Parent ]
I think I fairly described what was in the clip above.

It is what will be shown endlessly to people who won't get to hear you give your alternate view of reality.

A bunch of young men screaming and driving a huddled group of sheeple-looking sorts who hadn't broken any laws off the pubic way.

"We're going to follow you all the way home."

"you fucking b[something]"

"fuck you, piece of shit"

All protected speech no doubt. I'm sure it felt very empowering.  If the cops hadn't come, what was your next move if they had refused to leave?


[ Parent ]
It wasn't mob violence
THIS TIME - there's certainly the potential for mob violence in the future, and that is not a good thing.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
[ Parent ]
The police
and I hope to God the police were there in time to witness most of what went on.

The police presence won't be of much use in most places (SF may be an exception), and will generally be more likely to twist the story (or lie outright) to back the right-wing theocratic agenda -- when they don't skip the middle man and just start beating random queers themselves.  We're on the left of this disagreement, whether the hyper-mainstream HRC types like it or not, and this makes us fair game for everything from vehicular assault to electrical torture.  The only way to avoid anyone in a given protest being arrested and charged with violence (hey, she broke that cop's toe with her face!) would be to stay behind closed doors.

[ Parent ]
And Jesus says...
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Matthew 6:5-6
While I agree with your point
that we would be better served by a leadership like the SCLC, representing the non-violent, passive CD face of our movement, we don't have a trusted broker in our community to act as our generation's MLK.

Given that if we tolerate hundreds more hours of abuse from these liars, they will simply MAKE UP this same set of facts--why allow them to verbally assault our families in our own homes? That's ridiculous.

One of the reasons sit-ins were effective was that the racists who sprayed bleach and ketchup on trained protestors were terrified of their victims. Because they knew that if they dragged that crap to Fisk's quad, somebody was going home in an ambulance. The abuse was being triggered by the assertion of a right to equality, not delivered to a black neighborhood. It's just not comparable.

Would you similarly advocate for Mexican-Americans to allow their kids to be harassed by Minutemen screaming racism? I don't. I think we need to show both our kids--who rely on us to defend them-- and our enemies--who will lie about us no matter what we do--that they ought to fear our wrath.

Those people are trained provacateurs, and a few good beatings will put our eventual non-violent resistance into perspective.

But wait, there's more!

My point exactly
This whole election cycle we saw nothing but lies on top of lies on top of lies from these "christians." They called Kay Hagan an atheist and tried to smear her with it, they called President-elect Obama and tried to smear him with it, they lie and say gays are going to forcibly teach homosexual sex acts in schools, they lie and say we want to sue their churches out of existence, they lie and say that gay marriage will lead to polygamy and bestiality, they lie, they lie, and then they lie some more. And they have corporate running dogs at Faux News, CNN, the NYT, and the Washington Times to publish those lies for them. What do we have? Joe "Forget the Trannies" Solmonese.

I am TIRED of being lied about and seen as weak because some pearl-clutchers are so afraid of offending someone that they advocate sitting meekly and asking, "Please oh please Mr. Politician, if it isn't too much trouble and won't embarrass you too much, might we be recognized as human beings with basic rights?"

Screw this. No one ever won concessions from those in power by making nice-nice. Has everyone forgotten that THESE PEOPLE HATE US AND WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR MINDS ABOUT THAT? They are personally attacking us, they are attacking our families, they will say and do ANYTHING to keep us sub-human. I'M NOT GOING TO SIT BACK AND TOLERATE THAT SHIT ANYMORE.

IMO, this "attack" was staged. Over 1,000,000 protesters this weekend, and this was the only violent incident we have any "evidence" of (and I use the term loosely), deliberately provoked by a group of people who are known pathological liars. If they didn't have friends pretending to be gay and faking an assault, then at the very least they walked in there with the premeditated intention of inciting a riot and provoking an assault. Why did they do that? Because they think that gays are a weak bunch of big nellie bottoms who will squeal and prance away the minute we're confronted by nasty words.

These people would never have dared to walk into south central L.A. and drop the N-bomb during a protest. They know that they wouldn't walk out in one piece. Why shouldn't they fear doing the same thing to us?

We've been sitting in the back of the bus for the last umpteen years, hoping to not scare people away from graciously granting us what is ALREADY OURS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION. It hasn't worked. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over. Joe Solmonese and HRC have failed. So now we're going to try something different. And if that means actually growing a spine and fighting back when we're attacked, then I say ABOUT FUCKING TIME.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
We tried the "reasonable leadership" approach after Stonewall.
and we got the HRC.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid
[ Parent ]
Our image?
Stop worrying about the 'gay image'. Gays will not win a popularity contest in this country no matter how nice they behave. In fact, our image has been mostly that of a bunch of wimps who only worry about sex and fashion who don't have the strength to fight our battles.
On the contrary
Conservatives are cowards by their very nature. They hide behind power structures and cheerlead bullying in large groups and the abuse of others that they would not dare to do in a one on one situation

They're lizard brains, and they understand two things: Fear and Pain.  Seems to me that in this video that one if not both were being delivered in spades. The fundy that goes down to the Castro to counterprotest something like this will not be swayed with logic or reason, so the only thing you can do is ram their head into a wall a few times or chase them off making sure they're too scared to come back as shown above.

People like Gandhi and MLK never had to fight Fox News and the organized 24/7 RW media machine.

I was one
of the people that helped chase these Christains out of the Castro.  These people had the nerve to come into our neighborhood to preach and pray for the gays.  I am sorry, but it was too soon after our civil right to marry had been stripped and it was like salt in a wound.  There was absolutely no violence whatsoever so I don't know where that came from.  They had the police protecting them all the way to their cars.  
Hi Neighbor
Can I buy you a drink to say THANK YOU!

Besser ein ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne ende
[ Parent ]
Untrue..
I wanted to share with you what the truth is about this event.  

The Sisters came to protect the memorial to Hank Wilson which the fake Christians were standing in front of telling us we were sick.

We put up a Sari to shield the hate and lies from our community

Yelling and screaming happened.

One woman had coffee thrown at her, and she was knocked to the ground.  The assailant was removed and given to the police by one of the Saints of the Sisters.

The police arrived and escorted the fake christians from the Castro with more screaming.  

No other assaults, physical, sexual, or otherwise happened.

If you come to tell us we are sick or must be saved, you are going to get yelled at and told to leave.  This is unacceptable.

So is the lying that has been happening by the fake christians.  


Thanks for the account...
>If you come to tell us we are sick or must be saved, you are going to get yelled at and told to leave.  This is unacceptable.

This is free speech and a totally right response. Some people are advocating physical violence, and except for self-defense, that won't help us.

It's not about being "nice," it's about staying safe and legal and ready to keep fighting the system. That's really hard to do from a court docket and a prison cell, or when you're paying bail instead of rent. That's all.

[ Parent ]
Did you give the cops your statement?
So is the lying that has been happening by the fake christians.

Thou shalt not bear false witness...unless it's against people who disagree with you and then it's okay.

These people have had no qualms about baiting and beating and killing us in the past. We haven't seen the last of them or their phony claims of assault. There needs to be someone taking video every ten feet at our protests to document their lies.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
In the early 1990s
Groups of straight homophobes used to cruise up and down Santa Monica Blvd. in West Hollywood shouting "faggots" at the men waiting in line to get in the bars.

One night, a car full of young guys passed by Rage (a popular dance club) and shouted slurs at about 150 men who were lined up at the door.

A car in front of the homphobes slammed on the brakes and forced them to stop. Suddenly, the entire line of guys waiting on the sidewalk rushed into the street. The men began smashing the windows of the car and got the doors open. They dragged the four young homophobes out of the car and began beating and kicking them. Then, they set their car on fire.

By the time the Sheriffs deputies got there (the station was literally two block away), the car was fully engulfed in flames and the four guys were bloody and semi-conscious on the sidewalk.

To my knowledge, no one was ever arrested for participating in this.

But, guess what. No one cruised up and down Santa Monica shouting slurs at us again. It just stopped.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

guess what?
I'm not sure I get your point.  Maybe you're not committing yourself to a position?  

Call me a hand-wringer, but I doubt the measure of justice in the world was increased by these boys getting beaten.

We don't need to choose between fighting and turning the other cheek.  We should do both.  

[ Parent ]
Maybe you're not committing yourself to a position?
Nope. I was just an observer. I didn't join in the violence.

It is just something that happened.

One of the things that surprised me about this was how spontaneous it was.

I was across the street watching the car go up and down the boulevard and it looked to me like the car that stopped in front of them did so deliberately.

Then, the crowd in front of the club just reacted instantaneously. Maybe they planned it -- I don't know.

I stood on the street corner with my boyfriend and then the Sheriff deputies arrived. They didn't rush into the crowd or anything. They just kind of stood around a watched. It was really weird.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
not surprized the memory stayed with you
it sounds like a horrible thing to have experienced
[ Parent ]
It was a good test
Until then, I wondered if I could be "one of the crowd" that committed mass violence.

I'll never forget how gleeful some of the participants were. I wonder how they feel about it today.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
Getting pissed off
Getting pissed off is necessary to any movement.  We need a fire lit under our butts to make anything happen.  There's been a lot of mention of MLK and Malcolm X.

It'll probably take both sides to make change happen.  My gut wants to throw some punches.  My head says that's not going to help.

While Malcolm X may have stoked the fires and kept people fighting, literally and figuratively, MLK was the face of the civil rights movement.  He took over the lead in the media.  Like Pam said though, we don't have anyone taking those reigns.  The sad thing it's not something that can be assigned to someone.  It has to come from the heart, and it has to be someone who doesn't look at the almight dollar as his/her reward.  Our national orgs won't lead this.  Some average person will lead this.

These prosyletizers had VERY bad timing
Gays will not win a popularity contest in this country no matter how nice they behave. In fact, our image has been mostly that of a bunch of wimps who only worry about sex and fashion who don't have the strength to fight our battles.

Sadly it's true. Gays have been thought of as something of a punchline for so long. That's why scenes like this probably surprise a lot of people. It's so much easier to discriminate and put down a whole group of people when you see them as caricatures. Some people may need to see gay people in the streets to understand that there are real people they've hurt. Because I still don't think they get it. They don't need to see us chasing people or threatening them with violence, but they need to know that gay people everywhere are pissed off.

I don't want any of these people to get hurt. So honestly what the hell were they thinking? Was somebody hoping to catch gay people on film beating up innocent anti-gay Christians, thereby making gays the persecutors? We know they love to claim they're the ones being discriminated against right after they do something like Prop 8.  

Another point
Maybe the fundies are coming into "our" areas on purpose.  Did it not occur to people that maybe it was all intentional, knowing our emotions are running high, to deliberately incite us to act out?  They want to show us as these scary, horrible people so everyone else will turn on us.  We have to be careful not to feed into that misconception.
Bing bing bing bing!
We have a winner!  

When you're acting purely out of anger, you're easily provoked into doing stupid things.  Yes, we need in-your-face activists to pull the entire discussion in our direction, and make the advocates look reasonable. That's a long way from violence.  ACT UP, to take just one example, was very effective in playing that role without any violence whatsoever.

On a separate point, I can't believe how many of you are waiting for some mystical leader to emerge.  Be your own leader, for chrissake.  Why do you need to wait for someone to preach nonviolent civil disobedience to you?  Do it yourself.


[ Parent ]
Good point!
All of us are leaders in this.  We all have a role to play.  Every time we come out, every time we stand up for ourselves and our families, we are a leader in this movement.  Maybe we don't need some figurehead.  Maybe we need to do this ourselves, as individuals.

Since the election, I've had more straight than gay people tell me they're sickened by Prop 8 and they're standing by us to fight this.  We need to support these people, not scare them.  We need to thank them for what they do so they'll keep up the good fight and so we won't be the bad guys.

At our Impact protest here in Nashville, the group was asked how many straight people were there and about 1/4 of the group raised their hands.  That means there were about 225 gay people present.  Pride garners about 10K.  

I ask you where is the community?  We need all the support we can get because even our own community won't come out to fight for our rights.  

[ Parent ]
that's right
This is a nationwide organic movement, and there will be leaders that emerge locally, but many of them are green to activism and could benefit from mentoring by those who have experience to share on this front (ACT UP folks). Mike Signorile was just saying to me how many of the stalwarts from those days were instrumental in keeping the NY Impact protest non-violent. He said there were many younger angry folks ready to channel their anger in the wrong direction, and were guided not to tamp down enthusiasm or energy or anger, but to avoid calls for violence by those who have been on the front lines.  
[ Parent ]
Yes, be the change.
Each of us the leader of our own destiny.

It may sound trite, but it is actually profound beyond measure.  

Waiting for some mythic leader who more than likely will never come sounds very familiar to me and very unproductive.

[ Parent ]
Aggression is a necessity
>> Maybe the fundies are coming into "our" areas on purpose.  Did it not occur to people that maybe it was all intentional, knowing our emotions are running high, to deliberately incite us to act out?

Duh! It's kind of obvious that's what they were trying to do...

But you see, whether react or not does not matter to these people (and other fundies around the country). They already see as as vicious perverts, so whether we behave aggressively or not does not change their opinion at all.

On the other hand, there are many people out their who do not give any serious consideration to gay rights because of our apathy. You're driving in your car, and you see a protest with rainbow flags - what is it? Oh, it's the gays protesting for marriage rights - you honk your horn and move on, you forget about it. But when you hear an incident like this, it catches your attention - and suddenly you realize that the gays are serious.

[ Parent ]
Typo
*there not their
[ Parent ]
but it may scare away
They already see as as vicious perverts, so whether we behave aggressively or not does not change their opinion at all.

The tenor of the anger may scare away potential allies who do want to participate but don't want to get caught in the middle of unchanneled anger. They don't see us as perverts, they just need to become active and come on board. Misdirected anger and falling prey to stoking from the opposition won't bring them in, that's just the reality.

It's clear based on this thread that there isn't a consensus about how to a clear path to broaden the movement beyond the protests. But having the discussion is valuable in terms of working toward a goal.

[ Parent ]
What doesn't hit them doesn't bring in allies
>> The tenor of the anger may scare away potential allies who do want to participate but don't want to get caught in the middle of unchanneled anger.

Yes, but I think the number of people who will be scared away would be less than the number of people who will actively start helping the gay rights movement by finally realizing this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. The problem with the current gay movement is that it doesn't affect anyone outside the LGBT community - which means, for most people, there is no reason to participate in it. Only a small number of heterosexuals are willing to participate for the sheer cause of justice. Most humans just don't take part in it unless they feel directly tied to it, that's just human nature.

>> Misdirected anger and falling prey to stoking from the opposition won't bring them in, that's just the reality.

Yes, and passivity has worked wonders so far, right? The slight aggression in the protests during the last week has already gotten us more allies and attention to our cause than we ever had before.

[ Parent ]
"The tenor of the anger may scare away potential allies..."
Or, it could attract the wrong kind of supporter.

There are all kinds of crazies out there.

In my locality, there are domestic terror groups who firebomb the homes of animal researchers and plant pipe bombs under SUVs. There are anarchists who vandalize churches on a regular basis.

If these people see something they like in this new civil right movement, they are likely to join the cause. Then, we're going to be in for a whole bunch of trouble.


When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
I so agree with you,
We don't need a Phelps WBC brand in our fight for Equality.  Let the religous right keep the crazy nutcases.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.
[ Parent ]
No, you realize they're not to be trusted.
Just like your pastor told you -- them gays'll do anything!

Do you really want to become the scum that some think we are?  Confirm their worst fears?  Then by all means, go smash some things and threaten some Christians.  I hope it makes you feel better, throwing your little tantrum.

But if you actually care about equality and justice and all those good things, you'll think a heck of a lot more strategically.  And you won't let the other side define us or set the terms of the debate.  

[ Parent ]
Speaking of tantrums...
There's a simple reason why children learn to throw tantrums almost instinctively: it's a proven method of getting attention to the cause.
[ Parent ]
But that "attention" is not always positive or productive.
Do we really WANT to be seen as 2 year olds?

I'm the parent of a toddler. She is just learning how to get "attention" this way.

But most child psychologists will tell you that tantrums are also about releasing frustration and tension, regardless of outcome or effect.

And then the child matures and learns how to express their needs and wants, and learns to "deal" with the parental rules. Older kids who still throw tantrums are either 1) emotionally immature, or 2) living in an unsafe environment where the rules keep changing so they don't know how to fix and cope with what is going wrong.

So sticking w/ this analogy, the GLBT communities (plural) are not emotionally immature, I reckon. Which leaves us with #2 - and there are those who are actively moving legal goalposts and making false analogies and using bad science to stack the deck against us. But the more we don't stop them (and that doesn't mean throwing a "tantrum"), the more we LET them make our environment unsafe.

But we're not toddlers. We're adults with agency and bank accounts and clout, on a large or small scale. We are citizens who have rights, and who overall can still speak up for them.

But throwing that "tantrum" puts us at a disadvantage and gives up control over our own environment. We're better than that. We need to prove it.

[ Parent ]
There's a reason why it's called an analogy
You took the analogy and ran a long, long, long way with it.

The idea behind the analogy was what I had mentioned previously: majority of humans outside the LGBT community and their families do not have any incentive to become involved with gay rights. A display of aggression can create that incentive.

May be some old grannies will be scared away, but the majority of the younger generation will be on our side, only if they stop seeing us as a community that whines and waits for someone to hand our rights to us on a silver platter. What you observe as the moral high ground, most people, by natural instinct, see as laziness or cowardice.

>> We're better than that.

Look back at gay rights and see what the moral high ground got us. We didn't take the moral high ground with stonewall and we didn't take the moral high ground with ActUp. Perhaps you're speaking of a sense of universal justice that comes out of religiosity: hate to break it to you, but there is no inherent justice in the universe; the universe is indifferent to everybody - there is no being that's going to sort out justice, nor is there any karma that's going to kick evildoers in the ass. Passivity in the name of justice is not going to bring you anything.

[ Parent ]
OFFS
> majority of humans outside the LGBT community and their families do not have any incentive to become involved with gay rights.

Then we GIVE them one.

>A display of aggression can create that incentive.

The WRONG one. This will NOT help. Do you really think violence HELPS change minds?

>We didn't take the moral high ground with stonewall and we didn't take the moral high ground with ActUp.

As I've said elsewhere here, there's a difference between "passive" and "peaceful." You seem to make them one and the same.

Also, I think you and I have different ideas of what "moral high ground" means.

Who said anything about universal justice? I'm talking about taking the rights we have in the US, working the system EFFECTIVELY, and making real change in people's heads and in their daily lives. That kind of justice. Not vigiliantiism, and not anarchy.

[ Parent ]
It's a very bad analogy
that deserves to be throughly destroyed.

Children have very limited rights. They are seen as not being capable of making their own decisions on important issues. Do you want to go down that route?

but the majority of the younger generation will be on our side, only if they stop seeing us as a community that whines and waits for someone to hand our rights to us on a silver platter. What you observe as the moral high ground, most people, by natural instinct, see as laziness or cowardice.

The younger generation is ALREADY mostly on the side of equality for GLBTs, even if they might make "gay" jokes etc. Look at proportion of 18-29 year olds who voted against Prop 8. Trying to get the younger generation's support via violence is pointless, not when the support is already there. You'll only risk losing it.

And they're not the people who need to be convinced, and won over.

[ Parent ]
I feel like a bit of a codger...
Back when Act-up and Queer Nation were around.  A lot of folks hated on us.  We were too aggressive, we were too loud, we were too uncompromising.  We were too angry.

But ya know what.. We got the job done.

And at the end of the day, I am proud of my friends.  I am glad we are where we are to even talk about marriage because these people got pissed, died in, got arrested, got mad, and didn't back down.  THey were loud, they were aggressive, they were angry, and they showed it.  

These reports of "Mad Crazy Fags hurting good christians", is bullshit, and we are buying it.  Look at this conversation.  Why are we even having it?  Do you really think so little of yourself and your fellow queers that you will accept any drivel they throw at you?

One guy out of maybe 150 got too angry, and knocked a woman down.  That's it.  He was handled BY OUR SIDE. and we continued to chase them from our hood.  And I say keep em out.

I am one pissed off faggot, and I am not going to go quietly into my grave.  I am going to yell and scream and follow the example of all my dead friends who weren't so well liked when they were doing it etiher.

mislabeling "non-violence"
These reports of "Mad Crazy Fags hurting good christians", is bullshit, and we are buying it.  Look at this conversation.  Why are we even having it?  Do you really think so little of yourself and your fellow queers that you will accept any drivel they throw at you?
I'm still trying to figure out how calls for non-violence are equated with telling people that no one can demonstrate, be loud, ornery and aggressive? Of course we can and should rattle cages by public expressions of anger.  

It appears that some on this thread have no problem with perpetrating actual violence if they are provoked by these fundies in a physically non-violent manner (obviously self-defense is justified if one is being physically assaulted by anyone).

My position is that a response that includes the loud, ornery and aggressive part of it is fine. That's not the same as claiming knocking heads as a proportional response.

There's a difference, and neglecting the distinction seems to be the order of the day for some folks here and that's not honest debate. I'm still waiting to hear why anyone here thinks the principles of non-violence are problematic/impotent for the movement for equality -- that doesn't exclude loud, angry First Amendment expression at all.

[ Parent ]
The point is..
The point is.. The single violent action that happened was handled - Not by them, not by the police, but by US.  

Just like in days gone by, we dealt with it and continued on with what was at hand, which was stopping these bigots from desecrating the memorial altar of the legend of Hank Wilson (who died on the Sunday prior).

I couldn't help but think that Hank would have been right there with em.  Shouting and yelling, and turning the one violent person into the police.

[ Parent ]
Hold it there!
Who said the principles of non-violence are impotent? I think no one.

The disagreement seems to be about whether we are required to apply those principles-- which include a chosen self-submission to physical, verbal and spiritual violence toward the end of showing your oppressor to be who he is, a hateful bigot--to bigots whose intent is to provoke a beating from those they oppress by law, who sought to incite a riot among drunken, angry, mourning people.

None of whom agreed to engage their oppressors in that time, at that place, under those conditions.

I'll put together something easy, quick and readable about the realities of the civil rights movement this evening if I can, but for now: I'm not advocating for a crowd to beat these idiots bloody, but only because I don't want to descend to their level.

Not because that would somehow magically make it less credible for our movement to continue to use non-violent civil disobedience as a tactic. The two things have nothing to do with each other.



But wait, there's more!

[ Parent ]
REALITY CHECK FOR MORMONS (and the Christian Right)
REALITY CHECK FOR MORMONS (and the Christian Right) - Violence is wrong; agreed.  But TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

If YOU come into my home and threaten my FAMILY's safety and security, you WILL have to suffer the consequences (see "Tying the Knot" for examples of safety & security being threatened, and the sufffering that followed).

How else can you characterize what the Mormons and "Christians" have done with PROP 8?

There is PLENTY of tragic examples about the suffering caused by Marriage Inequality, suffering endured by mothers, fathers, children.....you know, FAMILIES.

So they need to be honest with themselves - THEY brought all of this on.    My husband Bob and I were just sitting at home, watching COUNTDOWN on MSNBC, drinking a cup of coffee and bothering NO ONE, when THEY created, bought, and sold PROPOSITION 8 to the people of California.

CRIMINAL!

Decades MORE of Psychological Abuse? - OR - Stonewall.  Nationwide.  NOW!

Stay the F*CK out of ghettos!
I am so PROUD of those men and womyn escorting that VERMIN out of our neighborhoods.
There is a price to pay trapsing into LGBT neighborhoods.
We didn't waltz into the G*D DAMN LDS temple. or the Catholic Churches.
but we could.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner
No queer layed a hand on these BIGOTS
the only ruffing up I saw was police shoving gay men.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner
[ Parent ]
I get queasy when I hear this
Simply because these bible beaters have the right to be on a public street or corner to spew their drivel. If they aren't breaking any laws, they can stand there and proselytize.

The idea of chasing someone out of a neighborhood reminds me way too much of my days living in NYC where the God-fearing folks in Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, and Howard Beach ensured, through violence, that blacks walking in their neighborhood minding their own business were beaten within an inch of their lives or killed. This happened on a regular basis -- Sundown "neighborhoods" right there in NYC. They felt that all blacks were a criminal element out to hurt them, and this was their idea of neighborhood justice.

Many groups, at one time or another, have made justifications in their minds that The Other (even these fundies, whom I have zero tolerance for) "deserves it" for simply being "where they don't belong."  

[ Parent ]
Exactly exactly exactly!!
Please, let's not take on the bigots' tactics.  
[ Parent ]
Pam
This is a different story.  There was no one being beaten period.  I was there and saw no one doing anything of the sort.  We were loud yes, but not violent. Yes, they do have a right to proselytize and they do it almost every Friday night, but it was like salt in a wound.  
[ Parent ]
I'm not describing this incident with that comment
I'm discussing what happens when anger does cross the line and is unchecked; I am concerned about escalation because of provocation by the other side -- they do it will ease. People are clearly angry, and some have called for violence as justified, ignoring the very same rights of free speech both sides are entitled to.

My point is that behavior in groups has been proven to cause people to do things they wouldn't do on their own, and these emotions over Prop 8 are so volatile that it has serious potential for violence and to play in their hands.

[ Parent ]
You're failling to distinguish between
public and private spaces.

Unfortunately, other people won't fail to make that distinction. And won't fail to point it out.

[ Parent ]
You didn't see the rabid white anti-immigration f*cks
wading into high density Latino neighborhoods by the dozen.
Why?

cuz no amount of police first woiuld have answered calls in those neighborhoods, and second the police would have gotten pushed out as well, by the latinos not taking any SH*T.

Christian bigots...here's you notice
WE will tollerate ZERO of your sh*t, keep out of our spaces.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

between a rock and a hard place
I used to live in SF, and if I had been there, it would have been tough not to shout/whistle/curse those homo-bigoted people out of the Castro (and I am a bisexual, Episcopalian woman with a child, and pregnant with my second). And I'm sorry, but I don't buy it for a minute that anyone was beaten. The YouTube video just shows a bunch of justifiably furious queer folks trying to protect their neighborhood from a bunch of haters.

It bothers me that queers are always being asked to "behave better" (for example, let's leave the drag queens & kings at the back of the Pride parade so they don't embarrass the "good gays" at the front) so we can prove how frickin' normal we are to the masses. Obviously the No on 8 campaign used that tactic to NO AVAIL.

Queer is a political statement, Queer is angry, Queer is in your face. I'm not saying we should be pissed off all the time, but anger is justified in the face of this kind of bigotry. I would never disrupt a church service by yelling anti-Christian epithets, or trying to "convert" some straights to my perverted lifestyle. It is totally disrespectful of the Castro, which for so many queers has been one of the only places we could be ourselves, walk tall and safe, embracing each other, for these fundamentalists to come in and try to pray away the gay.

I have always been a follower of the model of Dr. King and Gandhi, but not because it makes me look better as a queer person. That is not the right reason to embrace nonviolence. We are allowed to be FURIOUS right now and if that means, for some folks, yelling in the faces of the people who hate us, I'm OK with that. We have a lot of options about we respond to feeling threatened, and I'm just not going to judge those Castro folks for their response to being told, in their OWN community, that they are bound for hellfire and damnation.

Shh...nobody tell Elizabeth about ACT UP
I'm not an advocate for nonviolence because I think it makes me look good either. We too are going to be judged by how we treat the least among us; to me that means refusing to hide the drag queens and providing our youth with support even if it makes us look like we're recruiting. We can't expect to be 'good' enough to earn equality. That's an important point.

But your statement that you would never disrupt a church service? Not everyone who embraces nonviolent civil disobedience agrees to that, and in fact if church is where the damage is being done, disruption can be useful.

But for the 1989 die-in at St Pat's in Manhattan, Cardinal O'Connor would likely still be insisting that condoms don't work, while using his political power to interfere with public health that works. Because normal, ordinary looking queer people were willing to go to jail to object, his position became questionable.

Just one example of saving lives by doing the unthinkable.

But wait, there's more!

[ Parent ]
Yes!
Disrupt, inconvienince, make it more trouble to oppress us than they can bear, and we will win. Tough road to take, but it is in the end a successful one.

Honestly, I would back to the wall and participate in a sit in the the Temple in Salt Lake City.

They have intruded into the most initmate and basic aspects of our lives. We need to make it costly and disruptive to them every single time that they do so.

If we lack the spine to do this, then we will return to begging for crumbs, and that did not get us an ENDA in any form or a Hate Crimes Act.

Minorities win against majorities only when the price paid by the majority to continue its oppression is unbearable.

Keep in mind that even the non-violent protestors broke the law in Southern States in nearly every protest. The law was against them,

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
I agree with you.
Phoenix Rising,
I am very familiar with ACT UP--in fact, my college thesis was on ACT UP and how its activism changed the GLBT movement.

My comment about not disrupting a church service by shouting anti-Christian epithets was just that. I personally would not shout anti-Christian epithets, but I would participate in other actions that call attention to the bigotry, oppression and hate that is being fomented by SOME churches. As far as I understand, ACT UP did not condemn ALL Christians (or other religious folks) in any of their actions. They DID condemn bigotry and utilizing religion to spread lies (i.e. condoms don't work to prevent the spread of HIV).

As I've said above, there are MANY ways to respond to violence against us--violence committed by individuals, the state, and the church. ACT UP was never violent, in my opinion, but they were very queer, very mad, and got the world's attention. And that's what we should keep working on--calling attention to injustice.

[ Parent ]
Butch it up
We need to find a way to "butch it up" politically.  I do not mean through violence, nor the stooopid things we often associate with BUTCH (often hetero) behavior.  We seriously need to stop being so cautious, timid, and apologetic when we demand what we deserved SINCE BIRTH.

I'm talking Rahm Emanuel type confidence, or even (bleh) Arnold Schwarzenegger.    Heck, these days, Melissa Etheridge and Suzie Orman seem to have more moxie and courage than any male out there.

Decades MORE of Psychological Abuse? - OR - Stonewall.  Nationwide.  NOW!

Nonviolence not always the answer
"Do you really want to become the scum that some think we are?  Confirm their worst fears?  Then by all means, go smash some things and threaten some Christians.  I hope it makes you feel better, throwing your little tantrum."

They're going to believe that no matter what, because their sky fairy and those who profit from it tell them to. If more gays and atheists were willing to get physical and actually fight these people and make them bleed, there would be a lot less problems. How many stories are there of the bully who when finally socked in the nose left the victim alone?

Religion is behind all of this, in this case the Mormons who are a fraudulant organization, and that's a matter of public record. Smith was arrested, tried and convicted of pulling exactly the same kinds of scams that later morphed into the Mormons. The Catholic Church, also has had a scam going for 2000 years, and the real splits happen when people feel their cut of the money and power isn't big enough or threatened.

Peace is always the first, best choice. This has been tried. Time to start punching literally and figuratively

Actually, nonviolence has been working pretty damn well
As Louise points out in her diary, it's been 5 years now since the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court became the first to demand marriage equality from the state government.  In those five years, there have been several attempts to amend our state constitution, all of which have been defeated by nonviolent campaigns, and some really good lawyering.  The result?  The anti-equality people have all but given up in our state.

This month, as everyone knows, Connecticut began practicing marriage equality too -- even more amazing, the Court there held that civil unions are not "equal" to marriage.  

California is a huge disappointment, because no one expected the allegedly liberal state to vote against us, and because rights had already been granted.  But it's not the end of the story there either, as repeal campaigns, clever lawyering and nonviolent civil disobedience all will play their role in overturning Prop. 8.  

Violence on the other hand, here as in other areas, just breeds more violence.  It doesn't lead to equality, in large part because it's anti-egalitarian and anti-democratic itself.  

Nonviolent protest, partnered with other forms of advocacy, works really well, and it's been proven over and over.    

[ Parent ]
"...no one expected the allegedly liberal state to vote against us..."
You mean the state that gave us Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and dozens of the most conservative members of Congress?

It is a myth that California is liberal. The state also has the largest number of hate groups in the country. You are much more likely to be a victim of a hate crime in California than in any other state. Just scan the national headlines, you'll see that is true.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
Hence the "allegedly"
I grew up in California, in the era of Prop. 13, and the Milk and Moscone assassinations.  We agree on this point.  
[ Parent ]
Perhaps it would be better described as the most polarised state?


____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
[ Parent ]
there already is violence
Ask the transgendered members of our community; their Rememberence Day is coming up.

And we utter barely a peep.

We can be out loud and angry without violence, but I do not include shouting them out of the street as violence.

We have had enough, we should have had enough ages ago...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
ask gay men too
kicked to death in a Tokyo bathroom by 5 sailors, until his mother couldn't recognise his body

bashed while sleeping in a barracks by two cowards with baseball bats

pistol whipped and left hanging on a Laramie fence to die of exposure

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

[ Parent ]
ask lesbians too
My Women's studies teaching assistant's lover was beaten

A lesbian who had asked me to provide sperm for her to become pregnant, knocked to the ground outside a bar called FOXYs on New Year's Eve and kicked in her head.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

[ Parent ]
"Peace" is not "Inaction."
The criticisms against organizations that claim to be voices for gay communities have shown me that there has been a lot of missteps and mishandling. Some of that is unavoidable - people, individuals and organizations, are literally forging new tools and treading new ground, so there are bound to be tactics that work and dont' work. But some of that is inaction and paralysis, as groups either have conflicting priorities or methodologies, or as groups throw some of the very people they are advocating for under the bus (ENDA?), essentially diluting their own messages and encouraging inertia and complacency.

Regardless, what worked 10, 20, 30, 40 + years ago won't necessarily all work today.

What I saw on Saturday was a valid, affirming action, using new technology (internet, mostly, and taking less than a week in most cases) and old-school tactics (permits to gather, police protection, legal traffic movements ((getting police to close a section of roadway or using crosswalks while holding signs)), verbal chants, hand-crafted signs, active conversations and speeches, etc.). Media got notified, press releases were sent, and local attention was paid.

It was peaceful. It was not inaction.

 

[ Parent ]
Fine line
There's a fine line between righteously indignant (i.e. one freakin' pissed off queer) and being violent.  We need to learn where that line is and hold to it.
Let's reject the whole idea of collective responsibility...
...and collective punishment.  If some angry gays want to beat the shit out of some overbearing assholes in the Castro, what does it have to do with me?  Nothing.

I don't know the fact of this case, and I don't really care.  It's not my job to police the behavior of gay people.  My rights and freedoms are not dependent on other people behaving in a way that the majority finds acceptable.  End of story.

The laws should be enforced, and I have no doubt they will be.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

But when one is a minority group...
Unfortunately "collectivity" rules the day, especially if most people do not have daily routine interaction with the minority group.

This has been the compaint of ethnic minorities time and again. But when the majority is afraid, the vocal fearmongers can and do paint everyone "different" as a threat, or a potential threat.

Japanese-Americans were "interred" for the safety of the (white) American majority. Not because anyone really thought that every Japanese-American or Asian-American was a spy, but because of racism and fear, because the majority couldn't TELL who was who, and because it benefited those in power to flex their muscles in a display of false national security.

Some people here are not taking the "everyone equal under the law" response, and are advocating physical violence. That's a problem for them if they're serious, but it's also a problem for everyone else, who is left with a harder task ahead because of the actions of a few.

It ain't fair. But it's true.

[ Parent ]
Germans and Italians, too
I always have to add this when people write about the WWII internment camps.

My mother, her siblings and my grandparents were imprisoned at a camp at Crystal City, Texas. My grandparents came to the U.S. from Germany in the 1920s. They had the misfortune of being related to several top Nazi officials. That's all they did.

It wasn't just Japanese-Americans who were imprisoned here.

Many of the Japanese who where imprisoned here in the U.S. were brought here from SOUTH AMERICA.

They were immigrants to South American countries who where brought here and held for the duration of the war. Many of them were 2nd and 3rd generation South Americans. And they weren't allowed to go home after the war. The were "repatriated" to Japan! Some had to be taught to speak Japanese!

IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE!

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
True, and thanks for telling more of the story.
But overall, I thought that most German-Americans and Italian-Americans were not targeted because they had already "blended" into the population, while Asian-Americans overall could not.

Collectivity applied because groups were easily identified.

[ Parent ]
They are trying to get us to become physically violent,
  And it is hard at times to resist.  It is called stress;
The mind's power to over ride the body's desire to beat the shit out of someone who truly deserves it

 They want their glory story, plain and simple. We cannot give it to them.  

 Our spokes people, press secretaries if you will, are rising out, Dan Savage was on Larry King and spoke well for our side. Others are coming through as well.  Our message is clear, the rights message is not. Our message is TRUTH, the right's is based on Lies.  Their tactic is to get on TV and over shout our voice.  They are being seen for what they are.  

 The election of Barack Obama proves one thing, the calmer side prevailed.  John McSame and Bible Spice Attacked and attacked with lies and character assassination.  The same is happening to us.  The Peter is pissed because in all our protests this past Saturday in over 300 cities and over 1,000,000 protesters on our side, he didn't get to see the leather BDSM picture of the LGBT community he has portrayed.  No one else say the BDSM scene either.

 The religous right is fuming mad because the American people saw everyday gays and lesbians and straight supporter of the LGBT community demanding equal rights. They saw Individuals and Families and not the sick freaks that we have been stereo typed as.  And we need to protest again soon in the same fashion.  This is how we will win.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

Can't control the winds of fortune...
I wish it were possible to have a 100% violence free movement.  But, it will and has never happened in the history of humanity.  Overall though, the GLBT movement is among the very least violent ever on earth.  We have an excellent record in that regard; we are right up there with Ghandi.  I think the same genetic encoding that makes us GLBTQ, also makes us abhor violence and makes us the next step in the evolution of man.  
Only one problem with evolution:
until the current generation, and with the exception of serious closet cases, we haven't reproduced that much.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.
[ Parent ]
Non-violence
Also, the idea of promoting non-violence here is based on the assumption that it actually works. Is this a proven fact? Has this been proven throughout the course of gay rights - through stonewall and ActUp?

Is Dr. King the only example here? And even that, was that fully non-violent? And as for Gandhi (who ironically hapenned to be both a racist and a homophobe), he was already pushing at an open door - the British empire had already come to a point where it could not afford to keep India. I am not so convinced that non-violence is a fool proof method.

I am not, of course, suggesting that we go around murdering people or burning houses, but we must stop jumping in fright everytime we hear the word 'violence' and seriously consider our options.  

OK, here's how I feel about this.
Let's say the KKK decided to hold a rally in Compton, complete with N words and burning crosses. Would it be acceptable for Black and Hispanic people to chase the KKK out of THEIR neighborhood? I'd say HELL FUCKING YES. It would be.Anybody stupid enough to do that would be lucky to get out of that alive.This incident is NO different. We are being targeted because of who we are. There's a difference between aggression and violence. Violence isn't acceptable. Aggression, however IS acceptable in this incident. At a protest? No. But when hard-core bigots try to target you in YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, I think it's permissable to chase them out, without getting out of hand.
It's like I always say-when a bully targets you, bully back-within limits, but BULLY BACK. That's the only thing bullies will listen to. And make NO mistake about it-these people are bullies.  
[ Parent ]
Wow.
>Anybody stupid enough to do that would be lucky to get out of that alive

Why, because Compton is all black and/or all black people are violent? Seriously?

When the Klan have come to my neck of the woods (and I'm in the burbs of Philadelphia, it's happened), the following actions have occured:

1. Legal actions to get their permit revoked
2A. Failing that, peaceful counterprotests from religious groups, civil rights organizations, neighbors who don't want to be lumped in as sympathizers, etc.
OR
2B. A thin turnout that humiliates the hate group doing the organizing and shows them for the throwbacks they are.

Sticking up for yourself WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE LAW is not bullying. But violence and making people "lucky to get out alive" is bullying and makes you no better than the opposition.

[ Parent ]
I understand YOUR point....
And NO, not all black people are violent-that's not what I was implying. What I was saying was that anyone that dumb to preach hate in an African American/Hispanic/Gay and lesbian neighborhood would be lucky if verbal assaults were all they got. That should have been what I said. I agree with sticking up for yourself within the bounds of the law-but there are SOME people among the bigots who don't care about that. They just care about shoving their nonsense down our throats, like the idiots who went into the Castro. THOSE are the people who deserve verbal assaults, like they got.
And remember, ACT-UP and Queer Nation did a lot of bullying-but they were TEN times more effective than sitting around singing "We Shall Overcome". As I've stated before-the militants and the moderates need each other. Without the moderates, the militants either can't or won't negotiate with the power structure, whatever it is. But without militants, the moderates have nobody to point to and say "You can deal with us or you can deal with THEM."  
[ Parent ]
Walking in another's moccasins?
While I agree with Pam, watching this video I am brought to the idea that these "Christians" are getting a taste of what it's like to be gay.

It doesn't make it right, and these Christians will never have a light bulb moment BUT the crowd, the anger, the fear, etc. . . . . . .

these folks look mighty young, are they Ron Luce's minions?


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner
no more Mr. Nice Faggot
We can play good gay, bad fag....I got dibs on the latter.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner
this may become my favorite VIDEO
I could watch it all F*CKIN DAY!

let the editor at queerty watch his puppies walking all over each other.....this cheers me up MUCH MORE!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

We ALL agree on one thing-NO violence!
I've seen absolutely NO ONE say we need to get violent. And I think we all agree that violence is not the answer to this problem. It only makes things worse.
However-there is a line between targeted AGRESSION and violence. Agression means getting in their faces and telling them they're wrong. We all know what violence means. ACT-UP and Queer Nation used targeted agression combined with non-violent protest. AND IT WORKED.
BUT-for the targeted agression TO work, we need moderates who are willing to negotiate with the power structure. You're probably sick of hearing this from me, but I will say it again; MODERATES AND MILITANTS NEED EACH OTHER in order to make any civil rights movement successful.  
[ Parent ]
This Christian Group
is at that corner almost every Friday praying and singing and really no one pays them any attention.  The thing that really pissed us off is because they were blocking a memorial to Hank Wilson who recently passed away. Hank Wilson was a long time gay rights advocate.  This coupled with the recent passage of Prop 8, mostly fueled by religious organizations set people off. It was like they won with Prop 8 and they were antagonizing us in our own neighborhood.  Now I don't condone violence by any means and I did not see any acts of violence there whatsoever.  We were very loud and angry though. I heard that some girl got coffee thrown at her and knocked down, but I did not see that happen and I was there from the beginning to the end.  As far as I am concerned that is minimal compared to stripping an entire community's rights away. They had no decency or respect other than trying to antagonize our community over Prop 8.  Even when the police came and formed a chain around them and asked them to leave they wouldn't.  They were hell bent on antagonizing and it made people even more mad.  
That's why I think they were LOOKING for a fight...
There was no other reason for them to be there. This was a taunt. Nothing more. Therefore, IMO they got what was coming to them. Sure, like I said above, everyone agrees that violence isn't the answer. But neither is NOT confronting these people. They're bullies. The only language they understand IS confrontation.  
[ Parent ]
Yes
they did get what was coming to them.  These people have nerve let me tell ya.  They think what they were doing was right and everyone else is wrong.  They didn't have the respect to honor the memorial that was there for Hank Wilson and they didn't have the respect for the community that just lost a major battle. They wouldn't leave and insisted on staying there to antagonize.  They knew exactly what they were doing. You can read all about this group here:

jhop.org and sfhouseofprayer.org


[ Parent ]
Let me guess..is this Stronghold we're talking about?
Those guys are the SA of the Religious Right-for those of you who don't know who the SA was, they were the muscle for the Nazi Party before Hitler got into power. They are nothing more than bullies and thugs-ESPECIALLY Ron Luce who's their leader. I can TOTALLY understand why they were chased out of the Castro-I saw a 60 Minutes piece on them and they are just plain nuts.  
[ Parent ]
This is the Revolution...and I'm not missing a minute of it!!!"
Sylvia Rivera would have loved it all. Her revolution got co-opted and gentrified by the same forces trying to quiet us now.

We will not be suppressed, even by our own.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
I don't know
if they necessarily came looking for a fight because they are there almost every Friday night.  It was stupid of them to come though so close to the passing of Prop 8 because it is well known that various religious organizations played a key role in helping to pass it. Also, they disrespected the memorial to Hank Wilson. Them being there was like salt in a wound to me and others that chased them out.  We've had enough of the so called religious right.
[ Parent ]
So CONFRONT them....
Get a good BAND up...and start a nice happy street party rignt in front or around them. Be nice and LOUD please and have a great time!

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.
[ Parent ]
Pam owes you, and everyone else, an apology
Personally, I think the spin put on this incident reveals more internal homophobia on the part of those who are criticizing it without the facts.  They assume that the GLBTQ people involved had to be in the wrong, the Biblebashers must be innocent because they are "church people" and as November 4th showed, real "church people" stick together even when it means supporting prejudice.
[ Parent ]
On the contrary, I think what Pam is owed

is a massive number of thanks and "atta girl's" for providing this gathering place and forum.  I guess donations wouldn't hurt either.

I've really appreciated hearing EVERYBODY'S opinions in this thread.

Thank you.


[ Parent ]
So the Stonewall Riots were wrong then?
Where would we be now without them? You see, this is a different kind of presecution. They want us to be quiet. To be invisible. They want to be able to say whatever bigoted thing they want and not have us respond in confrontation. They want to be able to talk about how great their marriages and kids are, but we have to keep quiet about ours.

They need to be pushed back. They need to be shouted down, we need to be more visible than ever. Actual physical violence is not good in general, but silence and peace is unacceptable right now, and counterproductive.  

The parents and clergy encouraging these kids to INCITE already angry people
WATCH YOUR FLOCK

I don't want anyone hurt, but I know going where you aren't welcome is a VERY VERY BAD IDEA.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

Get angry, but focus your anger very narrowly.
You know that sign that showed up in the protests, No More Mrs. Nice Gay?  Yeah, we'll that's me.  The day after the election, I found myself boiling over in anger at some friends and neighbors who basically said "Wasn't the election magnificent?!!! Oh, yeah that's terrible about the amendment.  You still have a lot of work to do."

My response was to remind them, in barely controlled fury, that THEY had work to do, and it was time THEY, as members of the heterosexual majority and Americans, took responsibility for the anti-American behavior of their cohort.

You know what, it worked.  Everyone I spoke with has taken a step further towards understanding and/or active advocacy.

I didn't plan these tirades - I simply couldn't be the nice gay any more.  But I was glad I could control myself enough to truly hold them responsible to their faces.  it does no good to complain when they can't hear.  It does no good to beg for them to be good citizens.  But it does work when you demand it, because within each fair-minded straight person there is a nugget of shame for being so damn lazy about standing idly by while their neighbors get stripped of rights.

So, my suggestion is to get angry, but be sure you get angry at someone it is worth being angry with.  And do it in a way that doesn't just blow off steam, but blows away all pretense of ever again letting them get away with being a bad citizen.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

Right on, Lurleen...
That's what I've been trying to say all day. Thanks for putting it better than I have. We don't need to go nuts, but we do need to take that anger over Prop 8 and focus it where it belongs, and hold them responsible. And it DOES mean chasing these professional bigots out of our neighborhoods. We shouldn't have to take verbal abuse in OUR SAFE ZONE. Period.  
[ Parent ]
Sorry, but I didn't see any violence. I saw angry rightfully angry people
If the Jews had done this to the brownshirts, imagine what a difference it would have made.

There is a difference between nonviolent and silent.  I refuse to remain silent.

MLK wasn't the only force which moved Civil Rights forward, Black Panthers also played a role
Neighborhoods police wouldn't patrol, the Black Panthers did, they also let Whites know the time of coming in their neighborhoods to F*CK with em.....was OVER.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner
This is incredibly painful
I actually wept when I saw this video.  I am so terribly saddened by this whole thing.  There are many Christians, Jews, Mormons and also other people of faith who love us and support us in our quest for marriage equality across this nation.  You know whenever I see this I go to that awesome YouTube website and look at those beautiful United Methodist Church commercials and the United Church of Christ commercials ("ALL THE PEOPLE") and I realize that the Jesus I believe in is simply weeping at the terrible things that have been done to us (gay people) in the name of God and the Bible by ministers and pastors who have robbed Christianity of its unconditional love and supplanted it with a fake Christianity of bigotry, greed and corruption.  It is a terrible thing that they do in the name of religion and I don't blame these guys for getting so incensed about the self-righteous bigots coming into the Castro.  They have every right to get angry; however I know that now we need (more than ever) to be one and to take up the leadership of Barack Obama as he said "Yes We Can".  Look at what that amazing man did?  Look at what he did?  So can we and he calls us to do it too.  He is the ONLY president who has called us to equality.  He is the ONLY president who calls us by name as a legitimate minority as part of the fabric of America. Please don't lose that vision people.  With him in office I truly believe we have the breathing room to sprint to the finish line with many civil rights for GLBT people.  Barack will be with us.  We have got to stand up and be men and women who are strong and can move through these difficult times with the HOPE and the optimism we so desperately must have to make the progress we need to make.

YES WE CAN!!!  I KNOW WE CAN!!  Let's go do good and make the difference!!

Obama Skepticism
>> He is the ONLY president who has called us to equality.

He's just throwing out candy bars. And with his wishy-washy attitude towards gay rights and opposition to gay rights, I would not consider him a friend of the LGBT community until he proves himself by actually taking a stand for gay rights and does something.

[ Parent ]
Correction
* opposition to gay marriage (not gay rights)
[ Parent ]
oh cry me a river
they are crying over this? try being forced from your homes. living in fear. vandalism. being fired from a job. being kicked out of the military. not being able to adopt. not being able to visit your partner in the hospital. not having the government recognize your love. these people were chased off a corner for showing hate. I hope all bigots go into hiding.  
my comment has nothing to do with the post above mine
i didnt even read it beforehand. these are my thoughts on the video
[ Parent ]
Suggestion for a Repeat
If a bunch of Christofascists decide to head into the Castro (or another gay village) again, don't chase them out - there's a much better way of scaring them off that doesn't involve getting aggressive or threatening.

Snog. Get loads of LGB people coupled up right in front of them, and start sucking each other's faces off. There's no law against public displays of affection, and I can't think of a better way to protest against their bigotry than to shove our sexuality right in their faces like that. If they want to provoke us, that's fine - but the Castro is OUR turf, OUR town - and we play by OUR rules there.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

Comment from a Republican
Let me start off by saying that I am a Republican, although I consider myself more moderate.  I have gay friends and work with gays, and have always treated gay people the same as I would anyone else.  You'd also be very surprised how many gays there are in the Republican party.  I know and work with several.  But anyway, I found this discussion through a link from Michelle Malkin's website.  I just wanted to make the comment that these types of actions by some in the gay community are causing a lot of damage to your cause.  Do you really think that this type of behavior, screaming, threatening, and assaulting people is going to help?  How can you achieve rights for yourself by depriving others of their rights?  Even Christians and conservatives have civil rights too, you shouldn't forget that. The arguments that I am hearing now from people is "look - they talk about the need for tolerance and the elimination of hate and bigotry, but they aren't that way themselves". And after watching a video like that above, how can you disagree?  Can you honestly say that the Christians in the above video are the haters, and the gays are the ones that are peaceful and tolerant?  I don't think so.  Did you see Bill O'Reilly last night?  He showed a group of gays invading a church service in Michigan, shouting and throwing leaflets all over the church.  The first thing the guests said on the show was "these gay people deprived me of my right to practice my religion" and they are in a sense correct.  The gay movement needs to be careful.  You've come a long way in the past several years, but if you start intimidating, threatening, assaulting, and trying to force people to accept your view, you're going to create a backlash so severe that it could take decades to overcome.
yes, and good, subservient blacks that "know their place"
were much more comfortable for those prejudiced and bigoted against their equality.

We've waited for over 200 years.
We'he had enough
How many straight Baptists have been killed for their faith in the US in the last century?
Wold you like to see the stats of LGBT's killed by religious conservatives in the same ttime period?

As for Mr O'Reilly, he lost me when he came up with the imaginary network of Lesbian gangs, complete with pink pistols.

This is about our lives, Sir, our citizenship and our equality. One of us gts murdered in the US as the result of a hate crime every eight days.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
A Hate Crime is a Hate Crime
whether or not the victim is a gay or a Christian.  The Christians in the video are victims of a hate crime by the gays in the video.  Why exactly are white Christians being singled out for this abuse by the gay community, when large majorities of blacks, hispanics, and non church goers voted No on 8?  Deliberately targeting Christians is no different from criminals targeting gays.  The vast majority of Americans are disgusted by these attacks on Chrsitians, I'm telling you.  
[ Parent ]
christians don't believe in hate crimes.
They consider them unncessary and unconstitutional.

Just ask Matt Barber:

So there.

[ Parent ]
What
was the hate crime committed here? Shouting Shame on You is hardly a hate crime. By the way, they voted YES on 8 and not NO on 8.  
[ Parent ]
Also,
when they come to drag you to the middle of nowhere, tie you to a fence and pistol whip you to death what are you going to do about it?  Sit there and let it happen?  Not me.
[ Parent ]
Another one of us was just murdered in Syracuse
When will your "vast majority of Americans" be disgusted by the outcome of the hatred preached against us?

I am through with moderation, with pleading, with begging for rights and protections.

Time for action; those who have and would oppose our equality will have to experience some inconvienience and disomfiture as the price of their keeping us disenfranchised.

And it was not the blacks, by the way, it was the conservative churches. We are too smart a people to be taken by the Domionist efforst to convince us otherwise and to paint us as racists.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
In the last week, at least 2 LGBT's murdered partially because of Christians preaching hate
and HOW MANY of you wingnuts murdered in that rally?
None you say?

How many beaten?
None you say?

There was no hate crime committed against those preaching hatred so strongly that we are being murdered at a higher rate than black men were lynched in the first decade of the 20th century.

The Right Wing Christians pose as victims when they are the vile perpetrators of the attempt at LGBT genocide.

We object
We will resist.
We are rising.
And we will defeat you

Be afraid, your dominance of us is ending


I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Equality?
You seem to have this belief that all Christians, all Republicans, all Conservatives hate gays and want to kill them.  Fine, go ahead and believe that.  Continue the riots, the assaults, the intimidation, the hate, and depriving the rights of others. See how far it gets you. I just find it astonishing that you are engaging in activity you accuse your opponents of doing.
[ Parent ]
Just how many dead right wingers have gays caused?
Exactly zero.

Now, go look at the Transgender Day of Remembrance site.
And that is just the known trans dead.

And then add the dead Lesbians

And the dead gay men

And the dead bisexuals.

Don't even considering lecturing me on using the tactics of our enemies.
Til we burn their houses, cars, intimidate their children and beat them to death with stones or burn them, we have not adopted their tactics.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Come back and talk to me
about tolerance after you've had the word "Faggot" carved into the back of you car. Or your tires slashed twice on school grounds while security did nothing. Or when the administration threatens to expel you on trumped up charges with no proof, but when you bring proof of being abused it is dismissed as "self-inflicted." Or when as a result of this you are suffering depression and you turn to the school counselor for help (because you're parents would only make the matter worse) and she tells you that because of the school board's policy she can't talk about it with you.

Real human beings are suffering because of the smear campaigns by these religious fundamentalists and promoted by the religious right. Real people are suffering and dying becuase of their lies and their hate.

watashi no yomeiri wa doko desu ka

[ Parent ]
if Michelle reads here
yo sunt,

  http://img56.imageshack.us/img...
that's for your filthy support for Japanese Internment CAMPS and accusing Kerrey of inflicting his own war wounds.

EVEN as much as I detest her, (and OMFG I detest her)I gave her credit for speaking against that lying pig Ashley Todd and her backward B.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

[ Parent ]
Kerry...typo


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner
[ Parent ]
Malkin
Take a look at her column, which is running nationwide newspapers:  

http://michellemalkin.com/2008...

You don't think what she talks about is going to hurt the gay cause?  Of course it is.  But all you want to do is hate and attack Malkin, instead of maybe examining your tactics, and thinking "gee, maybe it isn't a good thing to riot in the streets".

[ Parent ]
Malkin is a liar
Her column if full of hyperbole, half-truths and exaggerations.

No one is rioting in the streets. We have every right to boycott and protest.

We should hate Malkin. She is worthy of contempt.

It is ridiculous to think that we should not despise our enemies. I will attack Malkin and her ilk at every opportunity.

"You don't think what she talks about is going to hurt the gay cause?"

Of course, lies and hate speech don't do us much good. But, that's the price we pay for standing up for ourselves. You have to consider the source.

I'm not going to roll over a give up my civil rights just because some horrible, right-wing bigot writes a negative column.

Get real!

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
Two gays sitting having coffee is illegal
in places where the conservative religious types have the power to make it so, such as in Nigeria.

So, of course, our being out and heard is considered rioting to people who lobby where they can to keep us locked up and who want to overturn Lawrence.


I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
fighting hate with hate?
Ending discrimination with discrimination doesn't seem like a very solid game plan. "Coming into OUR neighborhood?" I'm picturing a gay fat Southern Sheriff patrolling the Castro..."we don't need yo kind around here...'

And the GayCarthyism of trying to get people fired because they contributed to the Yes Side is repugnant..I don't see the Yes side trying to fire gay people or have them lose their businesses. But even that is not as repugnant as those here who seem to be advocating violence (dogs and firehoses?).

And while there are certainly gay-haters who voted yes, most Californians who voted Yes don't hate gays, unless you want to really broaden the definition of that word, which of course trivializes real hate. Telling people who don't hate you that they hate you, if you do it long enough and obnoxiously enough will eventually become self-fulfilling. Frankly I've heard more overt mainstream hate from our side.Oh, and are Obama, Mcain, Biden, and Palin "haters?" They all had essentially the same position on this issue.

I honestly believe that if you had a vote checklist of all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, most Californians would vote YES to grant them to us. The sticking point is the redefinition of a word that has had one particicular meaning in our society. That's what the argument is about for many. I voted NO because I feel it is wrong to use the Constitution to take away a right. I realize emotions are raw after a short-lived court victory. But the vicious attacks on those who have a traditional and not necessarily hateful view of marriage is not helping the cause.

Which "Tradition" would that be?
The concubinage and polygamy that is all OVER the Christian Old Testament (Jewish scriptures?)? OR the polygamy advocated by the Mormon religion prior to making Utah a state?

Arranged marriages of convenience and circumstance, extremely common until the mid 1800s in Europe and the US, when ideals of "romantic love" began to take hold? (although circumstance, family wishes, money, inheritance, etc. were still issues of consideration)?

A woman requiring a dowry to be married? Or losing the ability to own property in her own name once married? Or being "encouraged" to marry the father of her child if impregnated outside of marriage?

"Keeping the races seperate" was also a tradition in the good ol' USA.

Tradition ain't what it's cracked up to be.


[ Parent ]
you mistake the heat of our rage as the DANGER
the anger might have gotten tamped down, maybe even healing could have taken place...but it didn't

The danger is when the heat of our anger fades, and a BONE CHILLING ICE COLD INDIFFERENCE sets in for UT tourism and products.
Queers can do indifference.....to DEATH

the indifference doesn't thaw or heal

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

[ Parent ]
It is okay to hate those who would kill you
Really. It is.

When someone takes away your rights and believes that you should be put to death or put in prison, it is okay to hate them.

I hate my enemies. I'm not a phony Christian who preaches "love thy neighbor" and practices hate.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

[ Parent ]
This kind of activism isn't helping | 194 comments
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