News Tips?
-- tips@phblend.com

PHB Mobile


About
-- The Blog
-- Pam | My home page
-- Autumn
-- Daimeon
-- Julien
-- "Radical" Russ
-- Terrance

Contact the Baristas

The Blend Blogrolls

Activism


Best of the Blend
Blog Posts

Special Events and Interviews

Blend-o-licious endorsements...



The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

Content © 2004-2008
Pam Spaulding

House Blend logo © 2005
Melissa McEwan

Photo of Pam Spaulding
© Judy G. Rolfe
All Rights Reserved.


SITE TERMS AND CONDITIONS
Support the Blend




An Online Magazine in the Reality-Based Community.



NYT op-ed on Prop 8, blacks and a 'moral minority'

by: Pam Spaulding

Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 08:00:00 AM EST


Charles Blow issues a lot of interesting and discussion-worthy points in his NYT op-ed "Gay Marriage and a Moral Minority." It is both frustrating and insightful in its look at the issue of black support for Prop 8.

The op-ed starts off on the wrong foot with Blow citing the now-familiar CNN exit poll results reporting 70% of blacks voted for the measure -- and thus "proving" that the Obama turnout surge was responsible for the initiative passing (this was shot down quite well by 538.com's Nate Silver).  He goes on to give three theories about why this demographic voted for 8.

(1) Blacks are much more likely than whites to attend church, according to a Gallup report, and black women are much more likely to attend church than black men. Anyone who has ever been to a black church can attest to the disparity in the pews. And black women's church attendance may be increasing.

According to a report issued this spring by Child Trends, a nonprofit research center, weekly church attendance among black 12th graders rose 26 percent from 1993 to 2006, while weekly church attendance for white 12th graders remained virtually flat. In 2006, those black teenagers were nearly 50 percent more likely to attend church once a week than their white counterparts. And it is probably safe to assume that many of them were going to church with their mothers since Child Trends reported that around the time that they were born, nearly 70 percent of all black children were born to single mothers.

(2) This high rate of church attendance by blacks informs a very conservative moral view. While blacks vote overwhelmingly Democratic, an analysis of three years of national data from Gallup polls reveals that their views on moral issues are virtually indistinguishable from those of Republicans. Let's just call them Afropublicrats.

(3) Marriage can be a sore subject for black women in general. According to 2007 Census Bureau data, black women are the least likely of all women to be married and the most likely to be divorced. Women who can't find a man to marry might not be thrilled about the idea of men marrying each other.

This latter point is a big dollop stereotypical portrayal of the desperate black woman looking for a mate, a notion that there's an immovable opinion that civil rights are a zero sum game to black women. Some other observations/suggestions from Blow to counter the above problems:

* Don't debate the bible because LGBTs cannot win.
* Don't mention interracial marriage, black women aren't down with that.
* Convey that applying yesterday's sexual morality to today's sexual mores backfires, and drives sexuality into the shadows and increases risky, closeted behaviors that place the health of black women at risk.

The interracial nonsense in the second item is insulting to black women -- is Blow saying these women cannot grasp Loving v. Virginia's relevance here? I say bunk. How would we know if the outreach hasn't occurred?

I think Blow makes another serious mistake with the first suggestion -- we cannot throw up our hands and cede a "religious beliefs" or bible-based excuse to those who don't support marriage equality. The Right and black religious conservatives don't own religion. There are black leaders of faith who do support equality, and they need to be front and center and supported by the LGBT community to do outreach.

The larger problem of dealing with the Bible and homosexuality is that too many leaders in LGBT community run away from religion kicking and screaming, writing off the entire religious black community -- heck the black community in general, as if it is monolithic -- on this issue. It's important and should be addressed, not dodged.

This lack of engagement -- the results seen in the open conflict and blame game in the aftermath of Prop 8 -- is a manifestation of:
1) discomfort with confronting the socially conservative religious black community on its faith turf - pointing out one can be of faith and not discriminate against a whole group of people wholesale appears to be seen as insurmountable;

2) discomfort with confronting the socially conservative (but usually otherwise progressive) black community on its literal turf -- I personally believe that our visible movement, largely not of color, simply doesn't feel it has the social tools or gravitas to engage blacks/minorities on this issue or any issue for that matter. IMHO, it's a lack of cultural awareness and irrational fear of dealing with people who aren't like you. It then becomes easier/more comfortable to write off the demo rather than confronting racial, religious, and cultural differences through outreach, with the former still a third rail for many.

More below the fold.

Pam Spaulding :: NYT op-ed on Prop 8, blacks and a 'moral minority'
That's not blame assignment, it's just a matter of folks in the dominant culture having no need to deal with immersing themselves in minority cultures at any level, or even knowing any minorities at anything more than a superficial level to get by in American society. In contrast, all racial minorities, if they want to get anywhere, understand the need to learn about and negotiate the dominant culture. One can say the same about LGBTs; that's why it's so troubling that anyone is surprised at what happened with Prop 8.

Friend Jim Toevs had this response to what I said above:

I am a 67 year old White American gay male, whose Privilege in our culture is exceeded only by that of White American Heterosexual males.

Most of us white folks don't have a clue concerning how our "whiteness" impacts our, Privilege, behavior, and attitudes; not only towards people of color, but life in general.

To most of us white folks, "white" is "just the way things are", and life would be so much easier and less complicated if everything and everyone were simply "white".  (This may be subconscious, but it is reality for most white people, none the less.)

People of Color confront their POCness every day of their lives.  White folks seldom, if ever, consider their "Whiteness"; again, because white is simply the way things are.

The first step in becoming a White Anti-Racist Ally is for a white person to acknowledge and come to grips with their Whiteness.

Step two is to understand that while we may not harbor any personal racism, we unknowingly often collaborate with institutional and cultural racism.

Step three is LISTENING.  No "yes,buts"!  Listen, and take it in.  Consider what is being said with an open heart and mind.  At this point, there is no need to respond except with two words, "Thank you."

There is lots more that we white folks need to do, but the above three steps are a good start.

Anyone wishing to personally pursue this subject further is welcome to contact me off list.

And the truth is that if you don't have the earlier difficult conversations to bridge differences, you're certainly not going to see the rubber hit the road when we need it to.

Blow's piece is full of flaws, but the premise that we haven't engaged or challenged wrong-headed beliefs of a community on terms it can relate to is correct. That he pairs it with the discredited nonsense and stereotypes makes it more damaging and difficult to undo.

The only way to counter it is with proactive efforts with facts and credibility; allies in the faith community have to be a part of the equation, no matter how many people in the LGBT community want to render believers as fantasists worshipping a Sky Daddy. It's hard to do that without getting in the trenches and hammering home the inaccurate conflation of religious and civil marriage. It needs to be broken and that takes time that hasn't been expended on a significant scale by our big orgs. Religious communities of color can be reached -- certainly politically, the LGBT community has more in common with blacks than the far-right white evangelicals -- but the latter saw the value of spending time and effort to do the outreach and spread disinformation to capitalize on misguided (but understandable) beliefs and cultural discomfort re: LGBT issues in a slice of the demo.

Diane Silver at the Bay Area Reporter issues a call for self-reflection about these conflicts emerging in such a painful manner:

For us whites, this is a chance to finally learn to hear our black sisters and brothers. This is also an opportunity to confront the misunderstandings and racism - subtle or overt - we absorbed growing up in a nation where racial stereotypes still rule.

I won't presume to speak for what African Americans need to do, but I will note that those who work against queers are doing much more than hurting LGBT blacks. These folks are ostracizing one of the only groups of whites who know deep down to their socks what it means to be oppressed. Obama's election is a milestone, but as blacks know only too well, it didn't magically erase racism.

Our future depends on what you and I do next. Will we transform our street protests into the long-term action required for victory? Will we build the coalition that will free us all, or will we let our pain and misunderstandings break us apart forever?

Good questions. Where do we go from here?
Tags: , , (All Tags)
Bookmark and Share
Print Friendly View Send As Email
What's monolithic about religion is its irrationality
You can't have a discussion with an irrational person sitting there and smiling while spouting condescending one-liners about "loving the sinner but hating the sin." Pointing out that this is a perfect description of castration gets you nowehre.

We will not have any peace until organized religion is brought to heel. Its program of death and destruction is painfully apparent throughput history -- most recently in Mumbai.

Why should any thinking person have a shred of respect for these monsters?


the fact is that not all religion promotes homophobia
There are Christian denominations that are not homophobic, and progressive leaders/allies of faith have to be marshalled to educate those who choose to read the Bible in such a selective narrow manner. Our movement needs to wake up and address the fear and ignorance in communities of color who would otherwise  align with us politically save the lack of engagement and challenge to those bigoted beliefs.

That's a matter of many LGBTs rejecting religion because the intolerant wing rejected them.

And this is coming from someone who's agnostic and unchurched. I see no reason to denigrate all people of faith wholesale. It's also a losing strategy, given religion will not be extinguished in this country, to pretend that the only answer is to ignore these folks who may be swayed -- the right has no problem trying to seal the deal.


[ Parent ]
Age of Reason
I don't reject my childhood Episcopalian faith because it rejected me for being gay.  I studied and agree with the words of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, John Locke, Voltaire, and all the other non-believers of the Age of Enlightenment who believed in science and reason over religion and superstition.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
It's a leadership problem
The greatest obstacle to LGBT acceptance is the Black evangelical leadership. If the church's minister has spent years preaching the immorality of homosexuality, how can any outreach effort expect to change the minds of the congregation? How can we expect the leaders to suddenly admit they were wrong and change their message?

Though I'm a white guy from California, I've spent more time in Black churches than a lot of white folks - I sell them sound equipment and installation, and Black churches need a lot of musical instruments and PA systems.

One thing I've noticed is that in the dozen of so Black churches I've worked with, the ministerial leadership is strongly nepotistic. More often than not, the son of the previous minister is the new leader, and it even stretches back two or more generations in the more established churches (and it's almost exclusively male.) So what we have is not only that the current leadership has a history of opposition to gay marriage, but so did their father, and his father, and so does the whole hand-picked leadership of the church throughout its history.

So the question is, how do LGBT folks who try to reach out to Black churches overcome this multi-generational prejudice in the Black church leadership?

Preachers very rarely like to admit they were wrong.


[ Parent ]
It's all about the intervention...
...of the choir director.

[ Parent ]
Yes, because every religious believer
is a monster out to kill other people.

If a GLBT person behaves abominably, does that mean that all GLBT people are monsters?

And to lay the blame of Mumbai on organised religion is simplistic and lazy, with most details of who the monster involved being hazy, and the usual political and military tensions between India and Pakistan.

Surprising as it might seem to some, Muslims were also killed in the Mumbai attacks.

As an atheist, I find the refusal of some atheists, the Dawkins, the Hitchens, and those influenced by them, to be very reminiscent to the attitude of fundamentalist religious believers. Right down to the fact that many fundamentalist atheists often have a very literal, by the book, word for word, view of a particular religion, one that is based entirely on what is written in a religion's particular holy book, sometimes even ignoring some other passage that contradicts their literal and fundamentalist reading.


[ Parent ]
8 would have been passed
without any black votes.  For those who want to change the way black women think, then black LGBT faith based leaders who speak the language of the bible and the koran should be reaching out to them.  I thought there was a faith based black leadership group.  White LGBT pastors and preists have tried for years with books, tapes, meetings, sitting in fundamental churches, youth protest bus trips all over America, and maybe some fundamentalist are buying the message about "what the bible really says about homosexulaity".  I don'know.  Visibility helps, but when  Seven Day Adventists come to my door with their evangelical message and literature, I feel it is a waste of time to try to convince them of my way of thinking.  I just want them to leave.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

It takes a long time
to try and teach a community anything different about their views on marriage and homosexuality.  I worked for 25 years as the only gay and male in a group of about 30 women, mostly African American.  Several were my good friends: we partied together, went on beach trips, and shared secrets.  Even though they accepted me and we talked about sex their was no references allowed about the possibilities of brothers being gay.  No sir, black men were not gay!  This belief is the reason why so many African Americans on  gay chat sites list themselves as "down and low" and discreet.  It just is not accepted in the African American community.

An Episcopal church in town (mostly white) now offers unions and the sister church (Mostly black) in the same town does not.  

I think the point I am trying to make is yes, there needs to be more outreach by gay groups to the communities of color but also their needs to be out reach within by people of color who are gay and out and willing to work within their own communities and churches.


[ Parent ]
Black LGBT's
I agree that the most effective people to reach out to straight black people are LGBT black people.  However, I wonder if there just aren't enough of them in many places.  Black LGBTs are a tiny minority with another minority.  If we assume that the frequency of LGBT in black populations is the same as in other populations at about 5%, there simply aren;t enough black LGBTs in many communities around the country to reach critical mass.  I'm sure critical mass can be reached in the south and in a few other areas where overall there is a large black population, but elsewhere I'm not so sure.  So the way I see it, positive change will happen first (if it ever does) in the south or in major metropolitan areas like the bay area of CA, NYC or Chicago.

One thing seems sure to me - black LGBT people need allies even more than the LGBT community in general.  That is, if you see this as a function of the numbers as I do.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.


[ Parent ]
Rev. Irene Monroe quote
"The tide is turning in the American-African community toward acceptance of LGBTQ people. And if black churches and faith-based organizations like High Impact continue to not accept us, it looks like the rest of the community will."

Published  June 21, 2007 in Black Commentator, In Newsweekly, and bilerico.com.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.


Not So Well Shot Down
"The op-ed starts off on the wrong foot with Blow citing the now-familiar CNN exit poll results reporting 70% of blacks voted for the measure -- and thus "proving" that the Obama turnout surge was responsible for the initiative passing (this was shot down quite well by 538.com's Nate Silver).  He goes on to give three theories about why this demographic voted for 8."

While I wholeheartedly agree that the passage of Prop 8 is not about race, but about a whole lot of things, the statistical "shooting down" doesn't work.  To say that the arguments don't work because the proposition would have passed by a razor thin margin with or without black voters ignores the reality that they played their part in this debacle.

It's like saying, hypothetically, that people over the age of 75 aren't responsible, because their gross numbers were similarly to small.  It may be true, but it's irrelevant.  The fact, however painful, is that the demographic, in combination with other demographics, saw the proposition passed.  


disproportionate blame
what you say is true.  all people voting for prop 8 and other hate amendments are equally responsible for their votes, no question.  however, the common refrain since the election has been that somehow the black population is the one to be examined with a microscope.  part of that is i'm sure because whites foolishly assume that blacks will naturally be sensitive to civil rights issues because of their experience with racism and the slavery legacy.  but part is whites using blacks as a scapegoat so as to avoid further scrutiny of the hateful habits of the majority of voters who, surprise surprise, are white.

all sub-populations deserve the microscope, not just the black one.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.


[ Parent ]
Let's not forget who is still pushing that meme
The same rich white corporate-owned media that kept airing McCain/Palin internet smear ads on the pretext of "illuminating the controversy" keeps pushing this crap. The MSM are NOT our friends; they have corporate Rethuglican masters to please, and keeping minorities divided by blathering crap like "blacks (and by extension Obama) are responsible for Prop 8 passing" is exactly how they make their money and keep their jobs. Rupert Murdoch and Bill O'Reilly have been laughing their neocon scabby asses off at us since before Election Day and they will continue to do as long as people like Charles Blow rehash the same old crap for them.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
This is somewhat difficult...
Because exactly 'how' are you suppose to do this? I touched on this in my post, that I as a Black gay male have no idea how to reach a "conservatice religious community" (or whatever the hell that menas) because I'm not part of it. I mean I belong to a general black community (aka family) that is intertwined with religion, but I'm remotely an atheist who likes reading my horoscopes just to go, "OMGZ ThatZ me!!1one" and that is really as far as I go...

I say that it is the job of black LGBT religious groups and members to change churches because it would seem kinda hollow for LGBT people to just go up in to churches just to talk about gay stuff and 'try to change the minds' of congregations. To me that seems hollow. Where are those gay people when it comes to replacing fixtures and equipment and improving the church? Where are these LGBT people when it comes to help with the luncheons or the 'Feed the Homeless' programs? If any help is going to come at all, it's not going to come from a group that is already seen as the 'outsider'..

And, to me, I'll say this one more time: if a person can believe in a all-powerful, all-mighty being existing in the sky to help conrol their world and lives- what stops them from believing gay marriage is wrong? That sounds condescending I know it does, but isn't there some truth to it feelings aside? I don't think it's my job to 'convince' someone that it's okay to be gay if their religion says it's wrong. I mean, I think religion is wrong and I don't think its someone's 'job' to try and convince me otherwise.

The information is out there and if anything it is the 'job' of family members and friends to change the minds of people because they are emotionally invested in them. I think it is the job of gay people to make a space for gay people to feel comfortable, not make the world feel comfortable about us because that might not ever happen as long as there are religious insitutions that have every right to exist as much as we do. If someone believes 'homoseshalitee' is a sin, then whatever. It's gonna suck for his gay son or daughter, but he does have a right to his opinion sad to say.

I just have an isue with the idea that it's the 'LGBT community's job to somehow 'change' the hearts and minds of the religious conservative blacks since a) we haven't been able to convince the majority of white conservative communities, and they are the ones that basically petitioned these anti-gay bills and fund them, b) there are other minority communities that are just aas religiously conservative (if not MORE) and somehow 'black' is suppose to be THE group that has to be changed is somewhat insulting c) 'they' have a right to their awfully wrong opinion.

His article may have been full of crap, but I just do not think it is the job of mainstream LGBT folks/organiations to go mingling into churches trying to change the 'heart and minds' of blackfolk. There are religious black queers and religious black allies and if they are in those pews and want change, shouldn't they step it up? And shouldn't the rest of us just support them stepping up instead of figuring out ways to change the churches?

Or how about asking why LGBT people support institutions that do not support them when there are LGBT religious groups that are fully accepting but have attendance numbers that do not even compare to other organizations. (Sorry, pet peeve of mine)

How is an atheist who is considerably liberal suppose to change the mind of socially conservative christian/jewish/mormon believers? Is it really by going to churches and trying to get them 'to understand'? I'm all for coalition building (you know,  because these are things they affect us all, gay or straight), but don't 'these people' have a right to not agree with 'us'?

Hmm, I feel bad for saying all of this; critisizing without offering solutions but I just had to put it out there... someting about the idea of 'chanign' black churches becaue of gay issues seems kinda uncomfortable when black churches are not the cause of Prop 8 and is ilk...


SING OUT LOUISE!
You got it exactly, saywhat!

[ Parent ]
SAY WORD!
You ate this!!!  

[ Parent ]
Hearts are changed when loved ones come out....
saywhat?, you are 100% right - black same-gender-loving, lesbian, gay, bi, transgender people need to come out to family and friends wherever possible. It's uncomfortable for everyone, but call it "growing pains". White LGBT people need to make sure that white-predominant LGBT venues and organizations are fully welcoming to and willing to listen to the black LGBT community members.

[ Parent ]
Two Bibles,
  or Maybe three?

 The FACT that religion was the wicked tool used and still used by white supremists to keep black people separate from whites. The holy bible is the backbone of the kkkristian religion.

 Is there a black people bible?  There must be because many seem to say that.  There must be an LGBT bible too.  

 Nope, the same king james bible. just interpreted differently.  I don't need to go to church to know my faith, which doesn't truly run my life.  I teach my daughters to love and respect all peoples. I leave it open for them to decide just how much of the religious garbage they want to swallow.  I personally believe there is something as a GOD, and her intentions is for all to treat people the way they want to be treated. Love thy neighbor as one loves themself.

 I have seen to many times from religious leaders, black, brown, white, etc. say that Marriage is completely about the ability to make babies.  We see all races have proven that makin' babies doesn't need marriage.  

 Religious Fundies who beat this 'marriage is for people who can make babies only' are forgetting the true importance of marriage as an institution they so want to protect and keep away from teh gays.  My parents didn't stay married for 44 years until my father passed away because they made two babies.  They stayed together because of unconditional LOVE for each other.

 Based on what I went through. I got married to my first wife, as I was taught that is what I had to do being a man(Parts only} there was love but I couldn't show my true colors.  That one lasted 5 months.  My second was forced because I made a baby and had to marry to be the legitimate father.  I was drunk when I had sex with her, and I was drunk when I got married. My ex married me for the money I was making.

 The point being, is the bible is the weapon of choice to back up ones way of twisted thinking when it comes to minorities.

 I had to come out of the closet so I could be the best parent I could be.  I came out when my children were 9 and 13, now they are 13 and 17.  What holds us together is LOVE.  

 I was taught how to HATE using the bible as I was once a member of the KKK. (trying to be a white male)  The bond between White Fundie Religious Nuts and Black Fundie Religious Nuts is the Hate they are using the bible for against the LGBT community.  It is not a bond of friendship or LOVE.

 My point being,
#1 What changed in the bible that made Loving vs. Virginia or Brown vs. Board of Education to be socially acceptable?  Answer, Nothing.

#2 Is this unity between the Religous Fundies truly building bridges across divides, black, brown and white, catholic, mormon and baptist? Answer, NO.

 Unity built on HATE is not a solid foundation and will crumble quickly as HATE is taught instead of LOVE.

 I believe we will see a change when the truth is discovered by the dividers that there is only one bible and it can't be used as a tool of LOVE and HATE at the same time.

 

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.


On the subject of Race
As a biracial woman of color I am not so sure that I disagree with the premises set forth in these statements.  I live in Washington D.C. Which has a large African American Population.

* "Don't debate the bible because LGBTs cannot win".
I have witnessed an over reliance of the African American Community on the topic of religiosity.   A stereotype? NOT in this area.

* "Don't mention interracial marriage, black women aren't down with that".

Again TRUE in the Washington D.C. area. I have attended Graduate School here and worked for U.S. Government and I can attest that at least in the Government that there is a general dislike towards biracial people particularly if one acknowledges their biracial status publicly, as in not solely identifying as African American or Black.

I  am a grown woman and I don't know how many times I('ve been asked (in an unfriendly manner) "What are you"?

For the most part I am skeptical when you write: "The interracial nonsense in the second item is insulting to black women -- is Blow saying these women cannot grasp Loving v. Virginia's relevance here? I say bunk. How would we know if the outreach hasn't occurred?"

I know the outreach hasn't occurred and I also know that for the most part African Americans seem unwilling to engage in any independent research.
Now don't get on my case because these are my personal experiences.

* "Convey that applying yesterday's sexual morality to today's sexual mores backfires, and drives sexuality into the shadows and increases risky, closeted behaviors that place the health of black women at risk."

Again NOT so sure I disagree with this premise because there is allot of denial in the African American Community.


Barack Obama is bi-racial
I think we need to address the misapprehensions and prejudices of Black people head on.

I really think some of the disapproval for biraciality may dissipate with President Obama inauguration.

If black women are against interracial marriages one needs to point out their disapproval is not going to stop it from happening and they really have no power to prevent it and it really doesn't affect them. (I believe the source of this disapproval  is primarily disappointment about black men marrying non-black women).

The opposition to black men marrying black men is similarly sourced. It is black men not marrying black women. But obviously (to us) if  a black mam is gay, he wasn't going to be marrying any woman, let alone a black one. Many Black women believe (falsely) that homosexuality is a choice, and thus they are upset black men are making a  choice not to be with them.

I agree with David Ehrenstein  about the difficulty of addressing religious people--some one else who is religious but believes in equality needs to make that argument.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mad Professah Lectures http://madprofessah.com
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell


[ Parent ]
Hmm...
>"Don't debate the bible because LGBTs cannot win".

I agree with you, but its not about the black community but really most if not all religious communities when it comes to debating scriptures. I think Keith Boykin put it best that the argument is done before it begins- one person brings up a scriputre, then someone brings up another one, and then really no one does anything to change the mind of another and now view the other as twisting 'The word'"

>"Don't mention interracial marriage, black women aren't down with that".

Again, this is true but I think you mistake black women not being 'down with' that because of the issue in which the LGBT community presents Loving v. Virginia. In the grand scheme of things in the Civil Rights movement, a movement about gaining rights and really the last thing on most black people's mind was having the freedom to marry the very people who oppress and discriminate against us.  So whle Loving v. Virginia may hit a chord its also a chord that makes many black people go, "Oh...ell, I guess that relates but... STILL GAY, OMGZSIN!" And also, black women may feel a bit 'bothered' about how they are in some ways compared to white or 'exotic' women in terms of power in society- especially when they view black men going after white women (doesn't happen as much but it does hit a chord) or the latter 'taking their men'. And I can tell you that as a gay black man... it is somewhat unnerving to see every other gay black guy with a white gay guy. A little unsettling.  


[ Parent ]
You can say that again
For a white person, I have had an extraordinary amount of contact with religious black folks. And I wept, literally, when I saw the No on Prop 8 ad that drew the parallel with interracial marriage, because it provided analogous facts (about Loving and the Nuremberg laws) without the context that says, These laws were an expression of racism...and therefore wrong.

Look at it through the eyes of one of my many colleagues in the environmental justice movement, who is a black church going lady in the Bay Area, who sees interracial marriage not as some pinnacle of integration but instead as an assault on her community's cultural integrity and something to be socially frowned on. From her perspective, if all we have done is tell her that our marriages are similar to an interracial marriage, we're making the case for the other side!

While I concede to Pam's point that this op-ed was not well researched, anecdotally it seemed coherent with my particular experience of the population under discussion. Of course I drew different conclusions, but I'm not sure I can argue the premise he was working from--that in general, black women are not society's greatest fans of interracial relationships, so it's important that we carefully frame our arguments without assuming or wishing that away.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
About religion
I was subject to bigotry because I was an atheist before I even realized that I was gay, and achieving equality for gays will not be a lasting achievement if it is done by people re-interpreting Leviticus as the basis of U.S. law.

We will be left with a group of gay christian bigots.

I'm always happy when a christian twists his holy book enough to be gay friendly, but you are still left with someone who thinks that there is a magic instruction book from god that should decide morality.

I would like to see the U.S. start to use reason as a guide, not Bibles, and agree that discussing the Bible is counter productive.


Let me add
(if I sounded harsh) that other battles going on - for womens equality, to preserve reproductive rights, opposition to capital punishment, drug laws, bellicose warmongering, animal rights, the environment.......  all break down among similar fault lines between "secularists" and religionists.

Gay rights is not an isolated struggle, but is part of a struggle for everyone to be free of the oppression of century old superstitions.

Quoting Bible verses only validates their idea that Bible verses should be part of our civil discourse.


[ Parent ]
I certainly agree with you
It is a struggle for everyone to be free of the oppression of centruy old superstions.  The establishment clause of the 1st Amendment of the Constititution spells this out.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
The argument on faith grounds is fruitless.
Frankly, as someone who has attempted the argument on faith grounds, I have to say that it is a non-starter.  Belief is not based on rational thought; using a logic model, whether based on the bible or not, to attempt to debate an issue that someone has decided (however wrongly) that the bible supports them on is not. going. to. work. Period.

This argument should be made on first amendment grounds, not religious ones. It's time to point out to people that their right to associate and practice their religion is protected in the Constitution.  So is the right of people to choose NOT to gather or practice religion.  And, equally, so is the right to associate with ONE person, and to express who one is in choosing that person as a lifelong companion.

The argument should be made to people -- black people included -- that if one minority's rights can be voted away by the majority, so can another's.  That includes any right they now treasure and that the constitution guarantees.


Indeed
Elsie, that's exactly how I got my Mormon parents to oppose their church's efforts. My younger brother and sister are POC (we're all adopted). I asked my parents what would they think if the lds leadership decided that POC were no longer worthy to be full church members any longer, to go back to pre-1978 doctrine. I asked what would they think if, based on that doctrine, that church decided that my siblings' rights to vote needed to be taken away. Then I asked them if one church's doctrine became law, what was stopping the rest of America from taking away the right of LDS people to vote, or get married under the law, or own property. Most American christians don't like mormons too much. My parents got the message really quick. Too bad the rest of their congregation is made up of racist wealthy white idiots unable to see past their magic underwear. But I expected nothing less of suburban Utah.

In all honesty I think it was my parents' experiences raising two children of color in a very racist Mormon city that allowed them to understand the evil in what the lds leadership was doing. They have a unique perspective in how religion gives a free pass to hate, and they no longer endorse that by their silence.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
NAACP
My local NAACP branch is aligned with the ACLU and was active in campaigning against Prop. 8.

Does anyone know how widespread this was throughout California?

It would be interesting to know.

Pam, I know that you're trying to take it easy. But, perhaps you can contact the president of the NAACP here in Monterey County and ask him to write something for the blogosphere.

I heard him speak at the Join the Impact event here in Monterey. I later found out that he had been at all of the No on 8 rallies along with others from our local African American community.

http://www.naacpmonterey.org/

I think we're overlooking a big part of the picture here.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


And I Wonder About Rev. Wright
The UCC has developed into a very accepting Christian denomination during the past 40 years or so, though I don't know how theologically autonomous various UCC pastors/churches can be.  Does anyone have any knowledge of Rev. Wright's positions on GLBT etc. issues?  If he is as progressive as the UCC is, churches like his can be important change-initiators in the AA community.  Unfortunately the media focused during the campaign on other (sensationalistic) aspects of Wright's beliefs.

Because of his long association with the UCC, I suspect that our President-Elect personally has fewer problems with same-sex marriage and other equality propositions than he has so far acknowledged in public.  But of course only he will be able to prove that supposition.

I also think we have to consider the possibility (and hopefully the inevitablility) that "raw" fundamentalist-type religions can evolve away from absolutism toward something softer and more amorphous like the Roman Catholic Church that in the US and much of Europe allows for "cafeteria Catholicism" lest their support shrink still further.  Easily within living memory, many relatively-accepting Christian denominations took as rigid a view of Scripture as the fundamentalists of today do.  


[ Parent ]
Thank You Pam
Pam,

Thank you for a superb article.

As a bi/gay upper-middle-class white male, you helped reinforce the importance for me of engaging and coming to know people different from myself, e.g., people of color, people with physical impairments, women (lesbian, bi, and straight), working class people, and more.

In that regard, I have found that it's important for me to be willing to experience embarrassment or shame when my prejudiced assumptions or perceptions are exposed.

I must be willing to experience emotional discomfort because my (previously unconscious) prejudicial beliefs almost always surface when I get to know those different from me, either via self-recognition or when the other person points them out to me.

I suspect I am not alone; in fact, although I'm not aware of any scientific evidence, I bet that a desire to avoid embarrassment or shame motivates many white men to steer away from meaningful engagement with people of color and others.  

If we (white men) remain conscious of this fear and act in spite of it, perhaps we will do a better job of understanding how life differs for people of color and to value those differences.

Mark D Worthen PsyD
Park City, Utah
Culture and Current Affairs Blog  


Supremacist Ideology
It all comes down to aggressive ignorance and dogmatic fear.

The fundamentalist churches, whether predominantly black or white, need to be picketed, shamed and marginalized. People who support rigid legalistic fundamentalist cult churches that indoctrinate children with anti-gay supremacist ideologies must be FOUGHT, not reasoned with. These religious institutions of bigotry despise reason. Their supremacist faith is the core of their world view and beyond rational arguments or pleas for fairness.

The Gay Civil Rights Movement will continue to focus more and more of its attention on the anti-gay supremacist religious industries. Why? We must make it obvious to the Middle that these groups are as evil, immoral, heinous and vile as we know them to be.

Until religious groups which seek to dehumanize gay people are marginalized, their power taken away, we gay people will confront, shame, expose and disrupt them. There is no reasoning or meeting of the minds with people who fundamentally believe I am a child molester because I am gay. How do you reason with that? Absurd.

Just as we marginalize, shame, protest, warn against and watch the KKK and other hate groups, the gay community and our movement will be strong proponents of marginalizing, shaming, protesting, warning against, watching, and educating the Middle about the supremacist anti-gay fundamentalist hate groups and their cult head followers who use religion to mask their own cowardly personal prejudices and bigotries.

"Santity of Marriage" is no less a coded supremacist phrase than was "Purity of Race".

No one minority group owns the vocabulary of injustice.  


What About Allies?
I see no discussion about how the Gay Rights Movement is doing anything about forming alliances with straight people and specifically PoC when they continue to marginalize LGBT PoC. Here we have the new issue of the Advocate with "Gay Is the New Black" even after there's been numerous discussion about how inflammatory it is co-opting the language of Civil Rights with no acknowledgment of its history of people's race-based struggles. As a Black straight woman I have to ask: what's in it for me? Sure it's fair but life isn't fair! There's this continued hostility and talking down about some person's "experience" with Black people and hanging out with "church" people that can be spotted a MILE away. Until the white people in the movement acknowledge their privilege and all the ways they benefit from it, no Black person who isn't carrying water and expects reciprocity wants to hear an argument about oppression or how they "should" support someone else's cause.  

Um...
You do know that article in "The Advocate" was written by a BLACK GAY Man, right? He runs the blog over at Rod 2.0?

And while I agree that whites in the gay rights movement shuld be careful as to how they use the language and connections to the civil rights movements (because they are under some delusion that somehow we 'won' those things and aren't still fighting for equal treatment, better schoooling and against job discrimination), gay black people do exist and some times I think it's important for straight allies of color to really 'get over' the white faces of the movement and pay attention to the queers of color that live next to them, come home during thanksgiving, and do their hair instead of getting hung up on what crazy white people say cause white people say dumb crap to us no matter who they go to bed with.


[ Parent ]
Yech.
Pam seems to be pushing for some sort of ethical special-ed approach toward the AA community, which frankly smacks of racism to me.  What, black people can't "get it" without special tutors in religious and social ethics?  Nobody else seems to need outreach.  She tops it off with a little pablum of white indulgence guilt quotes:

"For us whites, this is a chance to finally learn to hear our black sisters and brothers."
Step three is LISTENING.  No "yes,buts"!  Listen, and take it in.  Consider what is being said with an open heart and mind.  At this point, there is no need to respond except with two words, "Thank you."

Great idea.  Hear black brothers and sisters say  "you don't deserve the same rights."  Listen to them say "you aren't good enough to have your relationships recognized."  "When you acknowledge White Privilege, maybe we'll restore your rights."  Take it, then walk away, and don't you dare criticize.  

Um, that's not going to fly. The black community may have problems getting the white gay community hear its voice, but I have a feeling that voice is just going to be another pious echo chamber. I think the rationales we'd hear from any bigoted community, minority or otherwise, are going to be the same.  The Bible.  It just isn't right.  Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve. Your sin isn't like my skin.  Blah blah blah.

I've listened to this claptrap long enough.   Rather than "build coalitions through outreach," I'd rather just beat those in the community who dislike me.  And as we win one small victory at a time, I will  enjoy watching those churched-out communities choke on their own resentment and powerlessness to keep the world from changing, and bury their heads a little deeper in the sand.  It will take a little bit longer to win this way,  but it's worth it.  We're close.  As Nate Silver has proved, the AA community didn't pass Prop 8, and therefore they won't overturn it in the end.   If the black community gets off on a little payback, feel free to smolder over White Privilege instead of doing the honorable thing.  They're still going to lose in the end.  And then their lives will go on, and our lives will go on, and we'll all have the satisfaction of knowing we didn't debase ourselves by associating with people who are disgusted with us.


Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?




Join the Blend Chat Room



Report TOS Violations

Premium Sponsors



BlogAds






Search the Blend
Current site


PHB 2.0 Web
Search Blend 1.0 Archives
Ad Networks


BlogSheroes BlogAds


Miscellany

RSS Feeds

Subscribe with Bloglines

Visit NCBlogs


frontpage hit counter

Stats

Powered by: SoapBlox