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(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



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"A nutty lesbian blogger."
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The voice that will erase the sad bigotry of Rick Warren

by: Pam Spaulding

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 07:00:00 AM EST


I want to turn your attention to the man who will make Rick Warren look very, very small at the inauguration -- the civil rights giant who will deliver the benediction, the Rev. Dr. Joseph Lowery. On February 7, 2006, the pro-equality Lowery bid farewell to Coretta Scott King, another icon of the civil rights movement who was a long supporter of LGBT rights.

The video and transcript:

REVEREND JOSEPH LOWERY: What a family reunion. Rosa and Martin reminiscing, they had just begun to talk, when Martin seemed not to listen. He started to walk. The wind had whispered in his ear. "I believe somebody is almost here. Excuse me, Rosa," Martin said as he did depart, his soles on fire, he just couldn't wait. His spirit leaped with joy as he moved toward the pearly gates. Glory, glory, hallelujah. After forty years, almost forty years, together at last, together at last, thank God Almighty, together at last!

   Thank you, Coretta. Didn't she carry her grief with dignity? Her growing influence with humility? She secured his seed, nurtured his nobility she declared humanity's worth, invented their vision, his and hers, for peace in all the Earth. She opposed discrimination based on race, she frowned on homophobia and gender bias, she rejected on its face. She summoned the nations to study war no more. She embraced the wonders of a human family from shoulder to shoulder. Excuse me, Maya.

   She extended Martin's message against poverty, racism and war. She deplored the terror inflicted by our smart bombs on missions. We know now that there were no weapons of mass destruction over there. But Coretta knew, and we know there are weapons of misdirection right down here. Millions without health insurance, poverty abound. For war, billions more, but no more for the poor.

   Well, Coretta had harsh critics. Some no one could please. But she paid them no mind. She kept speaking. As we get older, or so I'm told, we listen in to heaven like the prophets of old. I heard Martin and Coretta say, "do us a favor, Joe, those four little children I spoke of in 1963, they are fine adults now, as all can see. They already know but tell them again. We love them so dear. Assure them we will always be near. Their troubles to bless and sanctify to them their deepest distress. Tell them we believe in them as we know you do. We know their faith in god and their love for each other will see them through. Assure them at the end of the tunnel awaits god's light and we are confident they will always strive for the right. Tell them don't forget to remember that we are as near as their prayer-and never as far and we can rest in peace because they know who and whose they are."

   What a family reunion. Thank you, Lord. Just the other day I thought I heard you say Coretta, my child, come on home. You've earned your rest, your body is weary. You have done your best. Her Witness and character always strong. Her spirit, her melody from heaven's song, her beauty warms like the rays of the sun. Good night, my sister. Well done, well done.

Tim Russo underscores just how badly Rick Warren will clearly be out of his league once Rev. Dr. Joseph Lowery takes to the microphone.
If I were Rick Warren, I'd have the nuts to turn down the invitation to deliver the invocation at Barack Obama's inauguration, simply based on decency.  But even further, if I were Rick Warren, in the interests of my own ego, I'd be smart enough to avoid comparison of my Celebrity Driven Life with that of the Rev. Dr. Joseph Lowery, who'll be giving the benediction after Barack's speech.

...Rick Warren will never be the man that Joseph Lowery was 50 years ago, when he founded the SCLC, or the man who marched across the Edmund Pettus Bridge 43 years ago, let alone the man Lowery is today.  Rick Warren would never have the courage, the stature, or the righteousness to sit across from George Wallace and demand a jelly donut, let alone his own civil rights.  

...Rick Warren is about to get steamrolled, like a gnat against a windshield, on the biggest stage of the last 50 years by a man who helped shape those 50 years, and to whom a guy like Rick Warren is lint on his suit.

Pam Spaulding :: The voice that will erase the sad bigotry of Rick Warren
Tim has the video of what happened on the Edmund Pettus bridge.
In 1965, King named Lowery to deliver the demands of a planned Selma-to-Montgomery march for voting rights to then-Alabama Governor George Wallace. In an event that shocked the nation, police tear-gassed and clubbed the peaceful marchers at Edmund Pettus Bridge. The brutality of what came to be known as "Bloody Sunday" focused the nation's attention on the extreme measures used to prevent black citizens from exercising their constitutional right to vote, leading Congress to enact the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Rick Warren with his bigotry, small-mindedness and downright ignorance isn't fit to be anywhere near the podium where Lowery will speak.
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Thank you for this post
Thanks for this post, Pam. Although I am not a Christian (I'm a Buddhist-leaning UU)I admit I love the beautiful language and comforting beliefs expressed so well here.
   I have joined thousands of others in expressing how angry and disappointed I am about Warren's role. However, I believe it is just as important to express loudly our appreciation of people like Lowery - to support our supporters, as it were.  

Lowry is amazing--but
Warren's presence still will be a stain on the Inauguration and a slap in the face to the queer community (and to American Jews generally).  I think we have to mobilize opinion outside of our queer community.  I've signed an online petition I found through Google, and sent it on to straight friends, and have also contacted the ADL, the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the New Jewish Democratic Coalition.  If you're a member of a church, write to their council, if you belong to any political action campaigns, write to them. Let's get as many people on record as we can opposing this horrendous choice.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

Has anyone noticed
that Barack Obama does things that cause people to howl in protest, yet he does not respond. Then he completes the project, turns to his accusers and says "What is it you were upset about?"

It is his style. He did it during the debates - remember how we howled for him to land a knock-out punch, but he went deliberately along and won his own race, thank you very much?

This is more of the same. My gut says that this guy thinks and behaves longer-term than either the press or the American people are accustomed to. We respond/react instantaneously to each piece of the plan instead of waiting to see the whole plan and judging that.

Just my second-cup-of-coffee thoughts this morning.
 


you may be right
I'm being forced to confront my own fantasies that he would do every single thing I would wish could happen... some kinda superman. There is absolutely no way he can make everyone happy. The Warren choice infuriates me (so does choosing Vilsack), while other choices delight me, and some are just blah.
  I do feel it is literally impossible for a U.S. President to please anyone 100 percent of the time.  

[ Parent ]
Pleasing vs. Insulting
Of course he can't please even a simply majority all the time, but that doesn't mean he has to make a choice that's demeaning and insulting.  And then posit a false analogy: I went to his church, so--  The proper response would have been to have him to the White House for some conference or even a photo op.  Giving him pride of place at the inauguration is deeply offensive and insulting to the GLBT community and its allies.


"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
I hope you're right...
I do think that our rights may be forthcoming a lot faster now that Prop 8 and Warren-gate are in the headlines.  It is very easy for Warren to stand up in front of people he knows with his hate speech than to stand up in front of the world and give Dobson-like speeches.  Maybe Obama wants to give him the biggest stage in history to fall on his face in front of the world and to reveal to everyone exactly how bigoted he really is.  I would like to think Obama understands why Warren is no good, but I'm not sure I'm convinced of that yet.  It seems to me that Obama is not aware of how destructive someone like Warren is to gay people and their supporters.  Even though Obama is very smart, he could be just like a lot of straight people who have never taken the time to really think about the gays and their plight.  

[ Parent ]
Did we forget
that not everyone is gay, and not EVERYONE supports gay rights...  Just because Obama picked someone we don't particularly like, let's say he had chosen HRC-Joe...  Well, there would be a lot of people who do NOT support gay rights that would take it as a slap in the face.  Someone could say the fact that he picked a white guy was a slap.  Good lord, it seems like everyone is always looking for "Mr. Perfect," and I think we all know that doesn't exist.

I thought his explanation was very clear.  He wanted people from all points of view there, because part of the "Change" that he spoke of over and over and over again was to bring people together.  So we would rather just have anyone that didn't agree with US banned from everything having to do with anything?  

We are about to find ourselves with very little support in a VERY small group if we keep up what we are doing.  After Prop 8, I watched people call for boycotts to businesses, like J.W. Marriott, who had nothing to do with Prop 8, simply because he was LDS.  It doesn't matter that in the 70's when he owned Great America, he stood up to the church and promoted a "Gay Day" at the park every year.  It didn't matter that Marriott was one of the first companies to offer domestic partner benefits.  People said, "Oh, he's LDS, so we are boycotting his chain."

Today I got a message from the man who started the Men On A Mission calender, saying he started receiving letters from members of the GLBT community saying they were boycotting him and his project, because of the LDS feature.  It didn't matter to anyone that he was actually excommunicated from the church for this calender, it has no church support, and the profits go to charity.  He donated to the No on 8, and put out a lot of support for us, but we'd like to all forget that, and because it has something with an LDS "theme" we are going to try and put him out of business?

We have no idea what we are doing.  I am so angry and my community right now... Rick Warren may not have been my choice, but I do NOT think we are in any position right now to marginalize our supporters.  Did anyone even TRY to find out why he made the choice he made?  Do you think Warren is going to start talking about how awful homosexuality is at the inauguration?  Instead of looking at this as an opportunity to further his platform, why can't we look at this as an opportunity for US to further his understanding about us...  Keeping some of the most frightening people close is how we change minds.  Calling for their elimination is how we harden hearts...

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
That is BS
YOu cannot change Rick Warren's mind no matter how close you keep him.

You win by making it unacceptable for people to publicly spew bigotry (See the discussion of Bayard Ruskin last week)

The bigots don't change, but they eventually die off if they can't spread their bigotry.

"[T]he job of the gay community is not to deal with extremists who would castigate us or put us on an island and drop an H-bomb on us. The fact of the matter is that there is a small percentage of people in America who understand the true nature of the homosexual community. There is another small percentage who will never understand us. Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That's our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay sentiment."
--Bayard Rustin; From Montgomery to Stonewall (1986)


[ Parent ]
Sad..
When MLK was shot, my mother remembers my grandfather hearing it on the news and saying, "Finally!  That F*$kin' Ni**er deserved it..."

5 years ago at Thanksgiving, that same grandfather said, "You know who my hero is?  Dr. King...  I was just a Mississippi cotton farmer who was taught a lot of things about black people, but I'm ashamed of myself...  That man took his life in his hands just trying to talk to people..."

People do change.  My grandfather was a 7th grade drop-out farmer boy...  And it took a long time, but he came around.  Right now, all I see is my goddamn community doing EVERYTHING they can to isolate themselves onto that little "island" and cause others to go, "Wow... Maybe there IS something wrong with them..."

It's fine to be angry, it's fine to speak out - but your militant attitude of "Love us or pay" is fuckin' bullshit, tip.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
So we only have to wait another 40 years and Rick Warren will love us?
If Rick Warren hasn't realized that it's evil to believe that some people aren't really human before he gives that invocation, it's meaningless.

And are you really saying that you choose "it's cool to hate us" over the message of "no, it really isn't"?  And do you really think that by rejecting hate anyone is advocating vengeance?  

Is that what the Supreme Court did in Brown v. Board of Education?  Is that what the California Supreme Court did last May?  Isn't it possible to stand up for what's right because it's right and not give a damn about the precious feelings of bigots?


[ Parent ]
Missing the point...
You GET to be upset, and you GET to stand up - but HOW you stand up is just as important, if not more important than as to WHY you are standing up...  What I have read on these boards over this issue is next to crazy...

I didn't say "It's cool to hate us," I said they have the RIGHT to hate us.  You have the right to hate me, I have the right to hate Matt Damon, we all have a lot of rights, and my point was that YOU are being intolerant of Rick Warren's intolerance.  So, there is the catch 22 - if you believe what you preach, you have to respect his right to dislike homosexuality.  Now, it would become a whole different issue if he was advocating violence, or talking elimiation or some other physical form of violence - however, simply saying that he doesn't believe in gay marriage and equating it the way he does, may be bullshit, but it's a pretty standard Christian argument...  Lots of people think that way - you can hate them, or you can accept that they are wrong and do what you can to change viewpoints.  If you take it to where you decide you are going to trash one of the most important wins of our, or at least, my life, just because you don't like who is sayign the prayer, then you are the guy that - as Annie Wilkes puts it, trashes the Mercedes for having a broken spring.  One bad choice.. Hell, 100 bad choices do not make or break someone - it is what they do with their position, and since he doesn't have one yet, I'm reserving my judgment.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
And you are being intolerant of peoples' intolerance
of Rick Warren's intolerance.


[ Parent ]
Uhhh, no...
this is a discussion - I didn't say I hate you, or want you dead, or think you should be silenced...  It's great to disagree, it's lame to demand that someone be banned because they don't agree with you.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
Lame,
sayeth you. Nice to know that someone who claims to be tolerant is so intolerant.

[ Parent ]
Your grandfather changed...
...because racism was made unacceptable by society, not because racism was catered to in the hope that someday he would come to change on his own.

I actually think your example supports an argument opposite to the one you are trying to use it for.  When the debate was actually going on, and shortly thereafter, your grandfather thought King was the most hateful of radicals, pushing way too hard, antagonizing people, and moving way too fast.  In hindsight he realized that all that conflict had been necessary to get society to a better place.

In any case, you're right that we need to fight wisely and maintain our moral authority--which I perceive to be the underlying theme of your argument.  But pressuring people to reject homophobia and homophobes is definitely a major part of what we need to do.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
You're right
It's all our fault. How dare we speak out against bigotry?  What's wrong with us?  All Obama wants to do is have lots of people he disagrees with at his inauguration.  That's why he'll be having racists, anti-Semites, anti-Asians, anti-Hispanics, neo-Nazis, skinheads and all kinds of other bigots on the program too, won't he?

Even knee-jerk conservative TIME has run an outraged op-ed about this awful move on Obama's part: http://www.time.com/time/polit...  Plus Olbermann, David Corn, and numerous other straight commentators have slammed Obama over this legitimization of bigotry.  If you think we're alienating the mainstream, think again.  

And if you think our president-elect launching his new administration with a bigot's prayer is equivalent to some guy peddling a soft-porn calendar, you're really missing the issue here.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
Used term
You know what?  You can put your 2nd-hand term of "bigotry" right back on the shelf.  Every stinkin' time someone says they don't approve of homosexualty someone fuckin' screams BIGOT!!!!  It's crap.

Bigotry is to act out against someone in a "hateful" way because of their affiliation.  You may not believe it, but there are those who oppose gays without HATING us.  My partners parents are very devote LDS members and love us - however, if I was to try and fool myself that they are so glad they have a gay son, I would be sadly mistaken.  They have talked to him and told him they love him, but have a hard time with our relationship.  They have never been anything but nice to me - and someday, I believe they will actually be GLAD for me.  They don't approve of us being gay, but the love us - they are not biggots.

 Now, if he was appointing this guy to be his adviser on GLBT relations, I would understand, but he's SAYING A PRAYER!!!!  Do you think he's really going to say, "God bless Obama and America, everyone - except for fags..."

I'm not missing the issue, you are SADLY missing the bigger picture of political maneuvering.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
This is exactly what he is saying
"God bless Obama and America, everyone - except for fags..."

You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.  Sorry to hear about your family situation but enabling your in-laws to silently disapprove of you is eating away at your soul.  Best to get out of that situation.  Silent disapproval is hatred at its finest, make no mistake.


[ Parent ]
LOL
I'm not sorry at all!  I love my family and Mike's parents!  My soul is strong, nothing is eating away at it.  They were raised LDS, and never knew anyone who was gay until their son came out and that caused them to start questioning, but you can't expect someone to drop years of faith and belief in 10 second, or even 10 years...

I think it's actually really funny that anyone would have the audacity to actually say, "Those stupid religous bigots can't deal with the fact that some people feel differently and don't believe what they believe." and in the same sentiment say, "And if they don't believe in gay marriage, or gay rights, then they are bigots and don't belong in our society!"  Aren't they just another group of people that feel differently than we do and don't believe what we believe?  

Yes, there is room for all beliefs.  I know people who hate jews - who hate blacks, who hate non-christians, who hate christians, who hate, hate, hate blah blah blah...  They have the right to hate - they do NOT have the right to physically attack anyone else, but their beliefs are their own and I believe they have the right to that belief.  We don't have to endorse it, we don't have to condone it, and we have the right to speak out against stupidity, but they do have the right to be stupid, and I would never suggest we take that right away.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
You're talking as if....
homosexuality is some sort of debatable subject that people can respectfully disagree on...like whether or not bacon or chocolate is healthy.  Society has determined over time that there is not room for all beliefs when some beliefs result in a hostile environment for specific minorities.  So, while people may have the right to hate, they don't have the right to speak hatefully in a way that arouses violence and the taking away of both religious and personal liberties.  Prop 8 did both.  

Furthermore, the difference is that gay people are not trying to stop straight people from doing anything.  The straight people are trying to stop the gays from their pursuit of happiness.  The only way to justify it is to equate gays with criminals who deserve to be incarcerated because they are hurting others.

Your in-laws DID know people who were gay before their son came out, directly or indirectly.  It's not your problem or my problem that they had chosen to remain uneducated about the issue.  I CAN and DO expect them to change immediately.  Why should I wait any longer (already been waiting my whole life) for them to "come around" to see that I am just as equal under the law as them?  I understand that you would like to protect them, but they don't deserve protection unless they are advocating for you and their son amongst their peers who have also chosen to remain in the dark on the subject.

You say that we don't have to endorse or condone stupidity but that is exactly what Obama is doing by asking Warren to give the invocation.


[ Parent ]
Wow...
Society has determined over time that there is not room for all beliefs when some beliefs result in a hostile environment for specific minorities?  Really?  When did they do that???  I'm so excited that all bad feelings about these specific minorities have been exiled!  I mean, no bad feelings, no hate, right?  Like we don't even have to fight about it anymore!  It doesn't even exist anymore!  At least, according to you....

LOL, No...  I don't know where you think someone decided there was no room for opposing viewpoints, but they are there whether we like it or not...  And yes, I do believe that people can judge and dislike gays without getting to know us and it cause us no harm.  Wanna know how I know?  Because I judge people every...day...of....my....life....  I judge what celebrities wear, I judge people's relationships at a glance, I judge things ALL THE TIME!  I see a 23 year old blonde with a 60 year old guy...  I judge...  I think it's wrong - I think it's sick - is that even my right?  How do I know these 2 didn't really find true love?  Maybe it shouldn't be my right, but I do judge their relationship... I find it to be an "abomination..."  And guess what?  I get to...

My opinion may not be very tolerant - but I do it, sometimes without thinking about it.  I see someone with gang tattoos, and I make an assumption about how they live their lives and where they come from.  I don't always mean to, but I do it all the time.  I judge, they judge, you judge..  We all judge...  Again, I didn't say it was right - It's just that it happens.

You can expect my in-laws to change - I don't... I expect to have a billion dollars.... NOW!... wait.. NOW!... Oh... NOW!!!!  Damn!  It didn't work!  You have no idea who my in-laws knew before Mike came out, so don't assume.  You are making a generalization that they somehow HAD to know someone that was gay, because it's required that everyone has had interaction with someone gay, maybe they just didn't know it... Of course, there may have been a checker, or gas station attendant that helped them - my point was, nobody close to them had ever come out to them.  I don't know a lot about Malaysian culture.  You say that it is their fault for not knowing more about it - but there was no reason for them to know anything about it, it wasn't that they avoided it, it just had really never come up.  I don't hate the Malaysian culture, there just hasn't really been anything that sparked an interest to learning much about it in my life.  

When Mike came out, he dad held him tight and said, "I don't care...  I love you no matter what..."  But that doesn't mean he just pretended that he had never had any feelings, however misguided, about homosexuality, and you can't change years of faith and teachings overnight.  You can expect it, but just like I expected my billion dollars, for some reason it didn't happen.  Expect all you want, it doesn't change the outcome.  See, no one asked YOU to wait for them to come around... they are MY in-laws, and I could say, "You don't like me, I'm out.." But they never said they didn't like me.  They have struggles of faith with what their church tells them, and how they feel about their son.  I happen to have a lot of compassion around a crisis of faith - not because I can understand, but because I can't.  I've never had some unyielding faith in a God that couldn't be shaken.  I never took any book for it's word as the rules of life and all of human history.  I have no idea what that is like.  As I can't know what they are going through, I have a hard time judging what they may or may not be going through.  See, you expect progression to just 'happen,' and as long as I can see the scaffolding, I maintain my hope that what I am looking for is being built.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Um, no it isn't.
Bigotry is just an irrational dislike of a group of people. Since there's no rational reason to dislike homosexuality that must make them...well, you know...

[ Parent ]
Wrong!
Sorry... It isn't...  Bigotry is an action.  Being a bigot is an action - someone who activly treats someone in one way or another - and most of the comments I have seen here are the very definition of bigotry...

There are plenty of people out there who simply have the blind faith that homosexuality is wrong, not because they really feel it, but because they were told that was how you be a good Christian, or whatever...  If you were to ask them, they would say they have a VERY rational reason to dislike it.

I personally hate asparagus...  HATE it...  Am I an aspara-bigot?  No...  I feel I have a rational reason to hate it - I think it tastes like shit.  But others tell me all the time, "No, it's really good!"  Well, no... it isn't... I don't hate those that like it!  I just don't like it personally.  I don't really have a rational reason, I just don't like it.  Now, I'm not crazy - I know asparagus isn't "people" but my point is - I know people that just don't like it, for what they believe to be a very rational reason.  They don't hate ME, they just don't get why I can't go marry a girl and be just as happy as they are.

WE decided that their not understanding of homosexuality is "irrational."  Who are we to decide?  Now - if someone is ACTING on hatred - then I'll be a LOT more forthcoming - for example, if Warren really DID get up and start making statements about gays, I'd be the first to be on my way up the podium.  I'm not saying I like the idiot - I'm just saying that offering a prayer?  Really?  That's what we are going to get THIS upset about?  We really need to learn to pick the battles that are important.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
I think the problem
is that gay marriage is such a new concept that no one really knows what the correct analogy is to describe it.  I think the closest thing is interracial marriage.  But I also think that gay marriage (or, marriage for all) is an idea whose time has come, not unlike the end of slavery in this country or the end of discrimination based on sex and other things.

I think that pro-gay people could, in theory, be called bigots because they don't allow for anti-gay views to sink in.  However, at some point, science will show that being gay is immutable and something you are born with.  At that point, being "against" it will just be silly (sort of like the people who believe today that black people are naturally less intelligent to white people).  So, all I'm saying is that yes, it's hard to describe these things (asparagus, chocolate, bacon), but at the end of the day, it really is an immutable characteristic that will be ridiculous to disagree with.  People who disagree that some species of grass are green are put in the loony bin.  Or that swear that the sun revolves around the Earth.

People like Warren are already assuming it's immutable but that it's something that, because of the Bible, should be fought against one's whole life, like alcoholism or pedophilia.  So, we better start coming up with some talking points about that because they are ahead of the game there.  Obviously, the argument that being gay never hurt anyone is not working.      


[ Parent ]
I know...
I know it isn't comfortable to have someone like that on the pulpit - I guess I just feel like we hurt our own cause by getting "outraged" by everything...  I don't like things and actions that I think make us look crazy and just as intolerant by the other side.  Some people don't care, but my personal belief is that we HAVE to care...  I could be wrong, but I think we need to worry about how we are seen by others...  The definition of us being a minority means that in a "majority rules" society, we need others on our side, and things that make people uncomfortable with aligning with us, seems like the wrong thing to do.

And see, I also don't like the whole "born with it" argument...  I have my own beliefs, but I can't prove any of them - but I guess I don't like that somehow hanging in the balance, we have to prove it is immutable, or they have to prove that it isn't and THEN the fight is somehow over.  I like the fact that we have choices.  I personally know a few people who I believe really did make the choice of their current partnership - meaning - one of my friends who had only been with men met an amazing girl and she got together with her and have been together for a long time.  By mutable or immutable arguments she was not born gay.  There was nothing that would indicate it, and she still loves sitting with me while we play, "Whose the hottest guy" on a bench.  But she IS in a lesbian relationship and is very happy.  People say, "Oh, she's bi then..."  No... She's not...  Acording to her, she won't be labeled.  Currently she is in a lesbian relationship, if that ended, she said she doesn't know where she would go.  My cousin has dated 3 men and 3 women seriously.  He has only loved 2 people in his life, one was a man, one was a woman.  Again, people say, "Oh... He's bi..."  Again, no - he isn't...  In general, he prefers women.  If he is searching for "dates" he generally gravitates to women...  But he has always said, "I can't worry so much about gender.  I prefer women, but why would I close off the option that the most amazing person that might be there for me?"  In all reality, he's straight, but is open to a same sex relationship...  I guess what scares me is when I hear people say, "I couldn't help it!  I was born this way!!!"  Well...  That's fine and all, but now it sounds like you have some disease that you were born with... like, "I can't help that I'm this horrid thing!  Don't hate me because I'm a twisted sick gay!"  I know that isn't how any of us mean it, but I do believe that is how it comes across.  What if it was choice?  I don't remember making a choice, but I did a lot of drugs in my youth, so there are a lot of things I don't really remember...  What if I did?  So what?  Am I not allowed to do that?  I found love, it was with another man, and by choice or by birth that is my right to love...  Sorry, that might have gone off topic, just the nature/nurture thing always gets me, because I don't care how it happens.  I think some people are naturally inclined, and some have made a choice, or just are more open to possibilities, I think it doesn't matter how it came about, by choice or by birth, I still have the right to chose my mate, I chose Mike.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Ok....
1.  I see what you are saying

2.  Yep, those people are bi (and yep, my opinion only)

3.  I think it will be easier to convince/explain/enlighten non-accepting people that gays should be allowed to have marriages if being gay (or bi) is immutable.  That's why I harp on the immutable thing.  I think saying it's a choice smacks of relativism, which is one of the primary arguments that "people of faith" use to tell us our behavior is wrong and should not be condoned by society.  I don't believe in relativism and equate that with the choice theory.  But I'd be happy to hear why it's not relativism to think that.

4.  Funnily enough, I'm not sure I can get behind the "I don't care how or why" sentiment because I tend to believe the theories that hormones washing over our brains during development in the womb hardwire our sexuality and sex organs.  So, that means there's many, many different outcomes, but not that we get to pick and choose between them.  I personally feel that people who hold your view, not to attack, are still on their journey of self-discovery and self-acceptance and that they have had all sorts of ideas thrown at them that has made it hard to figure out exactly who and what they are.  Not that they weren't always that same person from the get-go.

Thanks for sharing, though.  It definitely helps understand your points better.


[ Parent ]
Thanks!
I guess when I think of "bi" I think of someone who enjoys sex with a man or a woman, generally equally...  I personally think if we didn't all pigeon-hole ourselves, we could ALL benifit for some sexual differences that may go outside of our labels.  I have been with 8 women in my life - one time I really liked it, the others were kind of...  crap...  Sometimes they were lazy, sometimes I was, but I realized that while sexually, friction, tight jeans can "do it" if I walk fast enough, I really enjoy being with a man.  That is my preference.  I COULD be with a woman, but I'd rather be with a man, so I take the label "gay."  I feel my first friend is straight but found a woman she really fell in love with - she still prefers men, if looking at "men" and "women" as a group, but in reality she doesn't prefer either, she prefers Brandy.

My cousin prefers women - opposite sex preference - however, he has enjoyed sex with a man, and has loved a man - but if you were to take him to a "bi bar" and told him, "Tonight you will choose the person you will be with for the rest of your life" 80% chance he would pick a woman.  That does not constitute "bi" to me.  Maybe the term was ruined by so many  people in high school deciding they were "bi" and saying they were "bi" but could never really do anything when it came right down to it - it was just the different thing to be...

So, I guess in the end of all this, I do know some people who have made a "choice" to be gay.  And I say, 'What is wrong with that?'  The LDS church says those who drink are immoral - and those who drink stand and say, "Well then, I guess we are immoral" and they ignore it...  And if you don't think rights are being taken away from drinkers, try getting one here in Utah!!  ;)  No, but honestly - I know it's not exactly the same thing, I'm just saying that I don't particularly like this whole thing teetering on a "nature/nurture" fact that is waiting to be proven.  I have my own belief that for most people, it is a born characteristic that is natural, and cannot be changed.  I have some other reasons for fears however about the "nature" side of the argument...  If someone proved that it was something that happened at birth, would they be able to test to see if a baby had the "gay gene?"  If they could test for it, would this cause some people to start aborting babies that tested "positive for gay?"  I don't like it at all...  I don't steer clear because I'm still "figuring out who I am," I steer clear because I think first, there are some really negative things that could come with this either way, and second, I think it shouldn't matter, because if someone DID make a choice, that should be totally acceptable.  we are allowed to choose a lot of things in life...  If someone did, I don't like that they might be outcast of our community because they were a "chooser, not born..."  It gets messy, but I see it's possible.  

But I am still on a journey of self discovery, and always will be...  God, the moment I think I know who I am and stop searching for answers, please shoot me!  I do not just "accept" who I am - I celebrate who I am!  I have no issue or hidden resentment with my sexuality, or really anything else.  I know very well who I am right now, but I'm always discovering that I'm changing, every moment of every day, and I love continuing to find all the things that make me me - and there are new things every day!  Anyone who is not on a journey of self discovery, and thinks they are done, really might just be done!  How boring!  Now that they know everything, I guess nothing to do but wait and die, right?

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Who the hell else should decide?
The straight people that tell us we can't get married?

The priests and pastors who think we're doomed to hell.

Bigotry needn't have action behind. The action is driven by bigotry.


[ Parent ]
451?
You can't censor thoughts or feelings - you want to run around demanding people change their minds, but your is closed.  You don't get, nobody decides.  If someone doesn't agree with your standpoint, currently it seems you deal with it by jumping on their ass and flinging insults...  When I get confronted with someone that disagrees, I try and see if I can understand where they are coming from, weigh it against my personal opinions and see if my opinions might just be wrong...  Then I give my opinion.  Sometimes I'm wrong.  Sometimes I'm right.  Sometimes there is no right or wrong, just differences of how two people see an issue.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
*rolls eyes*
Yep, what a saint you are.

How do you know that people haven't actually listened to people like Warren, and still find their viewpoints abhorrent? You don't. More strawmen. More rhetorical tricks.


[ Parent ]
Yes, because GLBT people
are the same as asparagus that you eat.

Reduction ad absurdum. Ontop of repeated use of strawmen.

Please stop with the sophomoric rhetorical tricks.


[ Parent ]
It's not bigotry to single out a group of people for unjust treatment, oppression or elimination?
It's not hateful to say your love is the same as incest or pedophilia and I'm going to work as hard as I can to strip you of your Constitutional rights and celebrate when I do?

Your pseudo in-laws oppose your very existence and you don't think they hate you because they're nice to your face?  They reject their own son's love for no rational reason whatsoever but that's not hate?

Okay, at least I understand where you're coming from now.


[ Parent ]
?????
Pseudo in-laws?  I don't have pseudo in-laws, I have an in-law family...  Don't presume to know how they feel - I said they have a bit of a struggle with over 50 years of faith and the love of my partner and myself.  But I forgot, you don't care if someone is having a struggle with anything - if they don't see your way right off the bat, fuck'em and turn tail - Well, you do that, and see how far you get, I will deal with watching people come round as they learn more about us.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
Every stinkin time someone says they don't approve of black people
someone fucking screams racist. It's crap.

[ Parent ]
Being Pro- and Anti-Civil Rights Are Not Equally Legitimate
Certainly everyone is not gay and no one was suggesting that the invocation had to be given by someone who was. But in the next breath you mention that not everyone supports gay rights. True, but that is not an acceptable viewpoint. What "gay rights" are is asking that lgbt people be accorded the same civil and human rights that others in the population take for granted. Being an opponent of equality is not the same as being a proponent. Substitute "Not everyone likes Jews" (I'm Jewish) and see how your logic reads. Again, true, but we hardly want to appeal to, validate and reinforce anti-Semitism. Yet by giving Warren a platform, that is what Obama has done with Warren's homophobic positions. Warren has a big smile and, as he is quick to tell you, he will offer you hot chocolate and crumpets as he uses his platform to campaign for the roll-back of your rights. And why do you think Obama is your supporter? Everything he has done thus far suggests that he will do little for lgbt rights in the first couple of years of his first term  except restore the Clinton status quo (nondiscrimination for federal employees and a very small group of third tier appointments). He seems to think mentioning gay people in his list of who is part of America is enough to make him a hero. My own feeling is that he feels he can pull a number of "Obama evangelicals" into voting for him in term two (a la Reagan Democrats) while he thinks lgbt people have nowhere else to go but to vote for him.  

[ Parent ]
Why not?
Why is someone not supporting gay rights not an acceptable viewpoint?  Who says WE are the queen bee's of all that is "acceptable."

YOU are the one that is being TOTALLY hypocritical here.  You can't in one breath speak about rights, and at the same time talk about requiring people with opposing viewpoints to shut up and hide.

When I fight for people's rights, it is ALL people's rights... Even their right, to be wrong...  See, we can have this open forum, where you have your viewpoint, and I have mine, but it seems in your world I should not be allowed to say anything because I disagree with what you believe is right.  That is a load of crap!  I listen to our side, I listen to the other side, I want EVERYONE to speak.  Half the time the other side speaks, they just give us more ammunition!  This is not about squashing those that oppose us!  It's about showing people how wrong they are - and if we can't win by doing that, then we have a very sorry little group here...  You do not win by silencing those you oppose - because we can take ourselves by example - when you try and silence us, the LOUDER WE GET!!!!  Yes, I do believe he should be able to speak - before, I thought this was simply not who I would have chosen, but it's not MY election - Now, I'm glad...  I hope he brings more controversy to the table.  I love that people are talking about this!  But the WAY people have been talking about it - ends up being more hateful and bigoted than those you accuse of being homophobic.

Do you not see the irony in screaming bigot, and then unleashing a shit-storm of hate on one man because of his belief?  He's WRONG!  But he has the right, to be wrong.

So go on Obama bashing - I never said he was my hero, or my supporter.  There is more than one issue in the world right now.  I thought he would do a better job fixing this country than McCain would.  If I thought McCain would have done better, I would have voted for him.  Honestly, there were other people I thought would do a better job of doing things than either of them, and that's where I put my support initially...  Seriously, please continuing talking about how much you hate someone - I'm sure that will change their mind into trying to do ANYTHING for you.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Not supporting human equality is acceptable to you?
So you'd support the Grand Wizard of the KKK giving the invocation?  Or Louis Farrakhan?  How about an abortion clinic bomber?  Or somebody pro-torture, say Dick Cheney?  These all sound good to you?

Preaching hate -- let alone getting rich off of preaching hate -- is wrong.  Inciting people to at best marginalize and at worst eliminate another group of people is not a valid opinion.  It is a pathology.  It's not a discussion.  It's a sickness.  It's not an alternate view.  It's evil.

It's also really not all that difficult to comprehend that this is true.  


[ Parent ]
Well...
Some of the differences that you sight would be these would be people that are committing crimes...  This is a preacher who has a narrow view on homosexuality.  Now, you want to show me where he was burning crosses, or shooting gays, or something of that nature?  He said he didn't believe in gay marriage...  Well, guess what?  Like a LOT of people don't...  More than half, apparently...  I have never heard him preach, I never saw he was preaching hate, all I saw was he has said his opinion was homosexuality was wrong.  Again, this isn't a viewpoint that is really new, or "Out there."  A LOT of people believe that, and your kinds of rants and freakouts don't really help prove that we are just normal people that want equal rights.

See, again, just like the people you say you are against, you have taken a standpoint and decided that everyone that doesn't believe exactly what you believe is evil.  Well, they believe that homosexuality is evil, you believe believing that is evil, and you both thing that whoever doesn't see your way will rot in hell...  I would think that people who are so alike could more easily find some common ground.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Sorry, but
Believing that we're the same as pedophiles and daughter diddlers isn't narrow.

Why does it have to be violence to be bigotry? The same feelings can lead to people saying they think it's against the bible to cracking someone's skull. That's what you don't seem to get.

It's not surprising when victims of policy become victims of violence.

It is hateful. Hate doesn't need a reason, and hiding behind religion isn't a reason.

If I were to say "I beat my husband every weekend," you'd conclude I was an asshole. If I say, "I beat my husband every weekend because it's my religion," that doesn't make it any better.

What do you call the push against gay rights if not institutionalized violence?

Ghandi gay, go away.


[ Parent ]
That's a slur on Gandhi
Non violent resistance is not the same as djtracid's defending of Warren.

[ Parent ]
I know where it comes from
My point stands.  

[ Parent ]
Uhhhh.....
I didn't defend Warren - but I'm sure you'd like to see it as that black and white...  I was defending Obama's right to pick a crappy guy to give a prayer, and Warren's right to be an idiot.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
No, you defended Warren
"He said he didn't believe in gay marriage...  Well, guess what?  Like a LOT of people don't...  More than half, apparently...  I have never heard him preach, I never saw he was preaching hate, all I saw was he has said his opinion was homosexuality was wrong."

Hint, just because you aren't aware of some of the things that Warren has said, isn't a valid defense.


[ Parent ]
Beating???
Did I say it was ok to beat someone?  No...  If I were to "believe" that it is ok to beat my wife/husband, but never did it - then what do you care?  It's my belief...  If I go through with it THEN it is something you could step in on.  I don't care if he believes we are all pedophiles or whatever.  I've never said he could start shooting gays - my point was, he can have his ignorant beliefs, I don't care what he believes.  He can believe in the flying spaghetti monster too - I don't care what he says, I don't care what he thinks - the problem is, I would care what he does.  My only point in what has become a mess of a discussion is that Obama picked a guy to do a prayer, and not everyone likes the guy that he picked.  I didn't say I liked him either, I just choose to look and say, "It would not have been my pick, and jeez guy?  You couldn't have found someone better?"  But it's a prayer, he's not working for Obama - The whole point was if we are going to get this upset every time Obama talks to someone or asks someone to do something that at some point didn't stand up for gay rights, and then turn our backs on our choice, we are in for a VERY long 4 years of complaining and not DOING anything.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
Sex between a black and white person is wrong.
50 years ago, that was a viewpoint that wasn't really new, or "out there". A LOT of people believed that.  

[ Parent ]
And...
some people STILL believe it...  Again, I guess I let some emotions take this WAY off track - my whole point was, there are people who believe things - they can believe things that we may not agree with, but what I have seen on this board is just people essentially screaming for the removal of Obama because he picked someone to give a prayer that has said some things we find to be wrong and narrow.  I think it's sad Warren was chosen, but he was chosen, and I think it's silly to do anything other than say, "I think that was just the wrong choice" and sit back and see what happens next.  Why don't we wait to see what he does.  Obama said he wanted to get a lot of different viewpoints around him in everything he does.

I think most of us hated Bush and used to say, "Bush just uses his little cronies for everything...."  Bush said he wanted to "bring people together" and he just ran the normal republican agenda - Clinton said he wanted to bring people together, but he really just ran the general democratic platform crap - Obama says he wants to bring people together, and has actually done something different.  Instead of just having a normal democratic ceremony he really does have people from both sides.  He is not using "Cronies," he is inviting people he doesn't always agree with.  This is what he SAID he was going to do.  This is WHY we voted him in...  And now, everyone seems to want to turn tail.  I just think this is such a small issue.  We haven't even seen what he is doing yet....  Months from now, I could be back here saying, "Crap... You guys were right.  He's totally screwing everything up..." It's possible!  I just think this is a small issue to make a HUGE case, and comments saying "Fuck you Obama" over a bad prayer pick?  Seems extreme and not the way to win allies.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
More strawmen
you are attacking the most extreme, and not common position.

Hint, there's a difference between screaming for the removal of Obama, and not being willing to blindly trust Obama the saviour.

"Bush just uses his little cronies for everything...."  Bush said he wanted to "bring people together" and he just ran the normal republican agenda. Clinton said he wanted to bring people together, but he really just ran the general democratic platform crap - Obama says he wants to bring people together, and has actually done something different.  Instead of just having a normal democratic ceremony he really does have people from both sides.  He is not using "Cronies," he is inviting people he doesn't always agree with.  This is what he SAID he was going to do.  This is WHY we voted him in...  And now, everyone seems to want to turn tail."

That is why YOU vote for him. Some people voted for him simply because there were no better choices.

Any blind follower of Bush will say the same things about Bush that you say about Saint Barack. Any blind follower of Clinton will say the same things about Clinton that you say about Saint Barack.

And you might be interested to note the number of Clintonites in Saint Barack's administration. Including worshippers at the temple of Friedman / Rubin such as Larry Summers.

Again, if Saint Barack wants to bring people together, why is the Reverend Jeremiah Wright not there? How about a Muslim Imam? A Hinddhu priest?



[ Parent ]
Blind faith
Ok, so here is something I guess we 'kinda' agree on...  Or at least where we may find better common ground.  I would never suggest blindly following him - this choice makes me nervous about him.  Honestly, as I said before, he was not my first choice this year - but in the end I felt like maybe he really would do some things different, and with McCain as the next choice, I got behind him.

I would never suggest he is a saint, or near infallible, and I have said quite a few times here, that this choice makes me nervous - but there are people here that are calling for his removal (before he is seated) and saying they will be trying to get him ousted in 2012.  I just think that is the wrong option to take due to one choice - what I had said before was we really need to see what he does, rather than form a lot of opinions on who he is or what he will do just because of this choice.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Is not supporting equal rights for African Americans
an acceptable viewpoint?

Obama the mutt is an abomination. A disgrace on the purity of whitewomenhood. He should have been forcibly aborted. Any black male that shows any romantic / sexual interest in a white female should be gelded.

Is that an acceptable viewpoint?

"Do you not see the irony in screaming bigot, and then unleashing a shit-storm of hate on one man because of his belief?  He's WRONG!  But he has the right, to be wrong."

Are you Sarah Palin? He has the right to be wrong. He has the right to express his opinion. And people have the right to unleash a shit storm. To express their opinions on his opinion. His right to free speech does not trump the right to free speech of other people.

"Seriously, please continuing talking about how much you hate someone - I'm sure that will change their mind into trying to do ANYTHING for you.
"

Yeah, because the GLBT community needs Rick Warren's help. Maybe it does. Maybe Rick Warren can "cure" GLBT people of their "illness" and their "deviance".


[ Parent ]
Oh boy...
So first, no - I wasn't saying we needed Rick Warren, I was thinking more about Obama and yes we need him.  We can succeed without him, but it will be more difficult.

As to the absolutely vile viewpoint you pose - I find it disgusting - but that is my opinion.   However, I still believe that yes, if that were your viewpoint, you would have ever right to have it.

You are right, he has the right to be wrong, you have the right to release a shit-storm, and I have the right to disagree with it as an appropriate reaction to invoke change.  I will try again - I think it was a bad choice.  I think Rick is an idiot.  I also think you have the right to complain on this board about it, but I have the right to my opinion that this is not helping.  I think there are more important things to worry about that who gives the prayer, and I think we will have a lot of bad press that makes us look foolish.  There are things in the recent days that I think make us look foolish...  So I release my opinion that I think this is the wrong thing to go after.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
So, did Obama invite the Rev Jeremiah Wright
to bless his inauguration? Doesn't Jeremiah Wright represent a point of view? A view that some Americans share? Hasn't Obama even attended Wright's church?

" Did anyone even TRY to find out why he made the choice he made?"

How about Obama explain the choice?  Right after he clarifies his statement about marriage between a man and a woman? Note, in reference to your sig, unlike Arnold, Obama still hasn't changed his stance on marriage between a man and a woman yet. Not publicly. Obama hasn't done much to earn trust.

"Keeping some of the most frightening people close is how we change minds.  Calling for their elimination is how we harden hearts."

Would you say the same if Warren is a blatant racist? Someone who believes that "mutts" like Obama are an abomination, a disgrace on the purity of white womanhood?

But, to your point. People aren't is calling for Warren's "elimination". That's a strawman you're killing. Warren has every right to talk as much as he wants. That doesn't mean that he has a right to be given stage to spread his views. That doesn't mean that his views shouldn't be attacked, ridiculed, scorned.  


[ Parent ]
*shakes head in disapointment..*
You do realize that any candidate for POTUS could NOT get elected if they came out and said they want to legalize gay marriage right?  I mean, seriously, if you don't even understand that much, I'm not sure I can spin my wheels on this argument...

Making a statement of support of gay marriage, nationally would sink someone.  Obama hasn't done much to earn trust?  He's not even in office yet?  I think for the jobs he has done since, he has done a lot to earn trust - in at least that he will get things done.  Again, it seems like people are forgetting who the alternative was...  Our "issues" are not the only ones on the table, and it is arrogant of us to expect everyone to be as sensitive to our issues as we would expect them to be.  At this point in time, I am more worried about the economy and stopping the war in Iraq and bringing our troops home, more than if we can marry.  It's an important issue, but its not the only one.

Obama is our elected representative, I think it's irresponsible to already have decided that he's worthless before he's even done anything.  I would be MORE worried if he wasn't planning his day, his way and trying to hard to worry about what everyone is going to think about every choice he makes, and who may have pissed off who at some point in time.

Seriously, reading the way most people are ranting about who says a prayer, is about enough to make me top a girl.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
So Obama, our first black president whose own parents marriage was illegal in several states at the time of his birth, shouldn't try to lead on equality for all?
Because then he wouldn't be elected.  So we should elect only people who either lie about their true feelings on equality or who don't believe all people are equal.  Because this is America and that's what we believe.

And you can be worried about money, war and human rights all at the same time.  Most people do it every day.  People like Obama haven't given us any other choice.


[ Parent ]
LOL, Ok...
See, I am worried about all of them, but you don't seem to be... I mean, if it doesn't have something to do with your holy roller cause, then you are ready to start taking people down.  You have picked one "cause" and anything that impedes that, just needs to be destroyed.. I love how the intolerant preach tolerance....  

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
So
we can't judge Obama on what he has done so far? As a senator? On what he has said? He should only be judged on what he has done as president? Why? McCain hasn't been president yet either. So, we can't judge McCain either? Let's also give McCain a chance? Would you say the same thing if McCain had been appointed as Secretary of State?

" Again, it seems like people are forgetting who the alternative was...  Our "issues" are not the only ones on the table, and it is arrogant of us to expect everyone to be as sensitive to our issues as we would expect them to be.  At this point in time, I am more worried about the economy and stopping the war in Iraq and bringing our troops home, more than if we can marry.  It's an important issue, but its not the only one."

No, no one is forgetting what the alternative was. That doesn't mean you blindly kiss up to Obama. Obama want's the money and votes and support of the GLBT community? Well, he's going to have to work for it. It's the blind support of, the blind belief in people like him that has resulted in people like him being the best choice.

And bringing up Iraq and the economy is a total non sequitur. What does the economy have to do with Obama picking Rick Warren? What does the war in Iraq have to do with Obama picking? Since the war in Iraq and the economy are so important, surely it wouldn't matter if Obama picked also Jeremiah Wright? Is Rick Warren working on tightening up regulations on Wall Street?

"Obama is our elected representative, I think it's irresponsible to already have decided that he's worthless before he's even done anything."

There's a difference between not willing to blindly trust Obama, and deciding that he's worthless. Yes, Obama is an ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE. NOT a hereditary monarch. An ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE. It is indeed irresponsible. Irresponsible to blindly trust him.  


[ Parent ]
You'll have a valid point the second that Barack Obama asks a well-known, rich, anti-black racist to be part of his inauguration...
... and not one second sooner.

After all, not everyone is black and not everyone supports black rights.  How dare he exclude someone who merely thinks that blacks are comparable to pedophiles and that the love between black people is a lot like incest and that they shouldn't be allowed to marry and the world would be better off if they didn't exist?  And he's black, himself, so that would really be showing tolerance and inviting an open dialogue, right?

I don't care about his big picture, if there even is one.  He's lost my support entirely for this and the ONLY way he'll get it back is if he follows Rick Warren's unworthy words with a public, complete and passionate repudiation of everything Rick Warren is.  Otherwise, I'll do everything I can to work against Obama's re-election in 2012.


[ Parent ]
This is why...
we have trouble finding support... You want to toss it out and disassociate with someone the SECOND they don't do EXACTLY what you want.  So, because he picked Rick Warren, 2012 comes around, and it's Fred Phelps vs. Obama - You're voting for Fred, right?

LOL!  It's so comical that you would shoot yourself in the foot like that.  It's like watching a small child throw a tantrum.  Like you didn't get to play in the ball crawl, so you are going to pout in the corner and miss your whole birthday.  Well, you have fun with that, I'm sure you'll really change some minds and have lots of people temporarally behind your cause, until they sneeze the wrong way, and you decide that was offensive and want to remove their head for it.  Yawn  This is boring...

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
It's so boring, you can't stop posting about it.
Or is it comical?  You can't seem to make up your mind.

I've made up my mind, however.  If it were Fred Phelps in 2012, at least I'd know what I was voting for.  If you can support covert bigotry, I can support overt bigotry.

I couldn't care less about changing minds.  I'm only responsible for one, and that one knows what it's going to do.  I don't know if you think you've changed some minds today, but I can tell you mine wasn't one.


[ Parent ]
You're right
I can't... I'm so pissed I CAN see straight.  I feel like I've gone crazy!  My community is acting like the very people they keep saying hate us so much...  They hate us because we represent something they believe their God said.  We hate them because they hate us, and that makes it fair.  We laugh at their archaic beliefs and say "Can't you just open up your mind and realize that we just feel different?"  But then when the tables are turned, everyone has a fuckin' cow and can't open up their minds and realize that some people just feel different.

I'm not trying to change your mind - really, I'm not.  I don't get it - I don't understand your position on this.  But seriously, like just saying that you would vote for Phelps over Obama, to me is just so stupid I can barely breathe..  But as I have said before, I may disagree, I may argue, but I respect your right to be an idiot.  I respect Warrens right to be an idiot.  I respect my right to be an idiot...  I've been one before, I'm sure it will happen at least a few more times in my life...

I guess I just expected more from us.  There is so much hate, hate, hate, hate gays, hate LDS, hate this, hate that, hate the right, hate the left, hate Obama, hate Warren, hate, hate, hate...  So where exactly does it end?  You have already decided you hate someone that you voted in, and would vote for someone else you hate more, just because you know where his hate stands.  But that wouldn't stop you from hating him, right?  So you would again have voted for someone just to continue hating him...

It's all so childish!  Even your statement that "your mind won't be changed" I'm not so arrogant that I think I'm so amazingly insightful that you just flipped your position, and so did everyone else.  I'm sure most people are right where they started before this even posted.  But that doesn't mean I don't get to state my opinion, and you had decided that no matter what I said, your mind would not have been changed anyway.  See, you BELIEVE you have an open mind, but you really don't.  You're just as closed and narrow as the religious right.  You believe what you believe and nobody can shake your faith.  I know who I am, and my mind is always open.  It doesn't mean I don't form opinions, but I read the comments on this board, and have changed my mind several times on certain things...  Does that mean that your mind is mighty and strong, because it can't be changed?  Does it mean mine is soft, because it can be moved with argument?  I don't believe so - I believe the strongest minds are those that are open to all things.  I listen to my liberal radio shows on the way to work.  I listen to conservative radio on the way home.  I like to hear both sides, and sometimes I side with the side that is not normally mine...  

Anyway, all of this wasn't really to change your mind.  For the most part it is not really even to you.  You won't be swayed, and others will be with you.  Maybe everyone that reads my stance on this issue will disagree.  But I still have my opinions and I guess I just wanted to explain why I believe what I believe - something I have yet to see from you.  As far as I can tell, it's the same kind of blind faith and stubbornness in your beliefs that you pretend to be so against.

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Nanny nanny boo boo
they hated us first.  So there.

[ Parent ]
It is not an act of hate to reject evil. It simply is not.
It is not closed-minded to reject evil.

It is not justifiable to embrace evil just because someone tells you to or it said so in a book.

It is not an act of love to embrace hate and call it love.

It is not American to put a preacher of hate on a global stage as a symbol of what this country is supposed to be.

It is every person's duty to speak out against hate at every opportunity.


[ Parent ]
LOL, Evil...
So YOUR definition of evil is right - but THEIR definition is wrong...  So sayith you, is now, has been and ever shall be...  Great!  Thanks for clearing that up rolls eyes

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
Wait.....
are you one of those gay guys who thinks they are sinful but is in a relationship until it is proved one way or the other?  I'm having a hard time figuring you out.  It sounds like you are arguing that people never have to believe homosexual behavior is moral because it is their right to believe it is immoral, based on their religion.  And that it is all just a matter of faith and opinion.  Is that what you are saying?  If, in your definition, having an open mind means considering the possibility that LDS anti-gay believers may be right about homosexuality when I know they are wrong 100%, then yes, I have a closed mind.  What are you still deciding on yourself on this issue?  Because this is the issue at hand.  You keep saying you know yourself and are comfortable with yourself.  But you are vacillating on the topic because the ONLY topic at hand is the morality of homosexuality.

[ Parent ]
LOL
No, I don't think I am sinful - I don't really believe in sin - I'm not religious.  I was never really raised with a faith in my life - That is why I was saying I have a lot of patience with people who have faith, because I don't know what it is like to have it - since I don't I don't know what it is like to battle against it...  My parents had gay friends since I was 10.  When I turned 19, my mom asked me if I was gay, I told her yes.  She asked why I never told her, I said I didn't think it really mattered.  Honestly, it felt like telling her I had brown hair...  It didn't feel weird to me, I knew my parents had no problem with gays - my mom used to teach a class on sexuality and it left NOTHING to the imagination...  As such, I can't say I've never worried what someone thought of me being gay.  

I live here in Utah, I was raised here, and I spent a lot of time fearful of who I was when I was in high school.  I got into drugs and prostitution, and spent 7 years on the streets.  I put myself in rehab and worked my ass of to build myself back and started to really learn how to find who I was...  I spent a year in inpatient rehab, and 2 years in outpatient.  After that I decided to go to school and got my bachelors in a social work program.  After I really looked at myself, I realized I was not willing to put that much work in for so little money, so I decided to put myself through business school and got my masters degree - I have been clean for 10 years, and am married to my husband, we have been together for 7 years this Sept.  We were married in 2005 here in Utah and then again on June 17th 2008, the first day it was legal.  I don't know if that gives you any insight into me, but that is a little of the outside of what I have been through on my journey to know who I am.  I know everyone has their own story - that is just an outline of mine...  I have been through a lot, and know myself very well-if I didn't know how to get to know myself before, I can assure you after a year of inpatient you almost get sick of how well you know you.....

So the topic, I apologize if it got off course was not if homosexuality was moral or not - I KNOW it's not immoral...  But that is what I know, because of what I have been through.  Someone that has not been in my shoes may not know that and have a different experience.  They may have a different faith, and I just believe that if they believe it's wrong, while I may know they are wrong, I believe they have the right to be wrong, as long as they aren't hurting me...  What they believe doesn't hurt me.  What they teach others doesn't hurt me.  If they change and try to hurt me, they no longer have the right to be wrong, they have the right to have me stick my foot up their ass...

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."


[ Parent ]
Some people just "feel" different
They "feel" that black people are stupid. Lazy. Only good for playing sports, rapping, and being thugs and hos. They "feel" that jews are money greedy. White people are superior beings. They "feel" that women are inferior, and are only good for cooking, cleaning, and being sex toys.

It's their feelings. People should open up their minds and just accept that some people are just different.


[ Parent ]
Exactly!
Some people are stupid - we don't have to like it, but it is the way it is, and screaming about it here doesn't change anything - yes I know you were being sarcastic, but it's true.  Some people believe everything you just said - and as long as they let it remain their personal belief, I don't really care.  If they believe that cats can breathe under water and hamsters can fly, I don't care as long as they don't test their beliefs...

"Mourn the losses, because they are many; but celebrate the victories, because they are few."

[ Parent ]
So, why aren't those people at Obama's inauguration?
Someone who will tell Obama to his face that he should be born should be there. For diversity.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, did not mean to give you a "unproductive"


vanhattan

[ Parent ]
Well I am a gay jew
From my perspective Obama's choice of Warren shows that he does not believe homophobia is on par with other types of bigotry. By choosing Warren he gives credence and support to those Americans who still think it's okay to judge us as immoral and second class citizens. This does not "advance" the dialogue. There is no dialogue with someone who compares our love to bestiality and criminality.

Picking your battles is wise counsel but that does not translate to giving a politician a free pass when they insult one of their most loyal constituencies. Repeatedly.

I think this false balance of Lowery is insulting to him and us. He should stand alone as a symbol of true inclusiveness and not be equated with Warren. They are not on the same level. Not even close.

Racism and religious discrimination is rightfully condemned but Obama still thinks its fine to be friends with homophobes. Because hating on gays is not "as bad". What a great example he is setting.


I'm a queer Jew--
--and Warren stinks for more than just the homophobic & anti-choice.  He keeps comparing abortion to the Holocaust in many different ways (always the sign of a weak argument to bring in Hitler or the Holocaust).  By doing that, he cheapens the murder of millions of Jews and non-Jews.  It's disgraceful, dishonest, and deeply manipulative.

While I'm on the d's, I found him trying to use Darwin to argue against gayness, in an interview with Larry King (who really pushed back):

Well, again, I would just say I think to me the issue is, is it natural? Is it the natural thing? I mean here's an interesting thing I have to ask. How can you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution and homosexuality at the same time? Now think about this.

If Darwin was right, which is survival of the fittest then homosexuality would be a recessive gene because it doesn't reproduce and you would think that over thousands of years that homosexuality would work itself out of the gene pool.



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Lowery
I agree.  It's awful that this bigot eruption distracts from Lowery and the honor due him on this occasion as one of the elders of the AA civil rights movement.

Case in point, I'm afraid we commenters have filled up Pam's thread about Lowery with more talk of Warren.  :-(

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
I'm beginning to think
that my husband may be right.

When he first heard about this he wasn't anywhere near as upset as I was.

After I had calmed down, we talked. He told me that what Obama seems to be doing is extending an olive branch early, so when it comes to push, if they disapprove, he can point that, wait a minute, he did all he could to accommodate them. They can either return the favor or get out of the way. He (my husband) apparently does this all the time at his job as he deals with some real bone heads and he kills them with kindness to get what he needs when he needs it.

This is marginally good news, but I'm still not convinced.


Obama will be judged on his decisions and actions
I won't forgive ANY of the Yes on prop 8 folks for attacking LGBT families and attempting to make us the ONE minority excluded from the equal protection clause. I also won't forgive that MY election night celebration of Onama's win, was RUINED by those hateful F*CKS like Warren and LDS elders. Now they want to ALSO RUIN My enjoyment of the Inaugeral Ceremony. That's why turning our backs to Warren and holding a KISS IN feels like the right response to me. It's US taking control of how we ACT when confronted with this cr*p, we could silently suck it up and attend like nothing happened, or we could not attend and not share in the ceremony at all, or we can pick and choose what is acceptable to us and what isn't.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


I certainly admire Rev. Lowery, but ...
Lowery is a great leader.

However, instead of Reverend Lowery, Bishop Gene Robinson should have been chosen. For those who don't know of him, he is a gay man, married to another man, and the Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire.

Since Warren's hatred and bigotry is primarily directed at gays and lesbians, it would have been nice for Americans to see what one of Warren's obaminations, I mean abominations, actually looks like.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)


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