Words Matter: Hate and Bigotry

Amen to that

We have to be more politically savvy as the conservatives have been--just keep our message simple, strong and direct. Spreading lies and ignorance at our expense is hateful even when it is masked under an allegedly Jesus-inspired smile, so let's just continue to pound away at it this way. Proposition 8 is an example of hate, Rick Warren spreads hate, and discrimination against us in any form has its roots in hate, plain and simple.

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by: Popeye @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 21:02:47 PM CST

The difference between Warren and Phelps

You write ...

If we use those words for people like Warren, some say, then what do we have left to call the Phelps of the world?

Um ... how about batsh*t crazy??!

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 21:07:44 PM CST

Womens Rights

It must not be lost that he is against women making their own life decisions.  

Pam,
J'aime ma Peau

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by: Blonde Pam @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 21:14:44 PM CST

Lessons from being a double minority

 I realized early on being black and gay  that people carry around issues regarding their status as a minority. For both.

I mention this when you talk about how some gays react to the Warren situation. It makes me think of my race and sexual orientation. How they overlap.

I should say  this does not apply to everyone. To whom it applies? What percentage? I can not say.

I just know the reality. Being black, I see the internalized issues with race that develops into behavior in some black people.

And being gay, I see the internalized issues with being gay that develops in some gay people. I don't mean the Hollywood or Roy Cohn variety. That's to easy. I mean the subtle ways it happens.

I would not see the gay issues quite so clearly if I were not black. The similarities of behaviorial outcomes both amongst the minority group and the majority, despite the differences between what defines the minority and the majority, are often stark.

For example, there is a soft bigotry for being gay and black that differ, but also the same.  Soft bigotry is where people are okay with "gay" or "black" so long as you follow their rules about being a part of the minority. "Black is" or "Gay is" normally defines it. This has postive and negative stereotypes.

It comes out in other forms. This has come out in the Warren situation in which you see bigotted progressives say they will not support gay groups going forward due the position of some gays being angry over Warren.

Now, I agree with that anger. We should be angry.  But to chacterize all gays based on it de ja vue for me. I remember that being the qualifier for many whites when it came to their support on race issues. I am for you so long as you are the "magic negro." Now, I feel I must say, " I support you so long  as you are magic gay." But, I digress.

Let's return to the main point. In the instance, here, you discussed how some gays seem unbothered by Warren. I have to say. While disappointed, I am not surprised. There are black people who did not think it possible for America to elect a black guy because that's just the way it is. "Why should we even try to change things?" That's what I heard earlier this year. Thus, they shaped their behavior according to this belief. Likewise, you see gays doing this.

Why then should it be a surprise that there are gay people who will accept that we must tolerate people who call us pedophille?  Afterall, "that's just the way life is suppose to be." We are setting ourselves up for the fall if we believe otherwise. That's their implicit point whether they know it or not.

The lesson is that we need to question the assumptions of white privilege or heterosexual privilege in that we should be just s outrage as the majorities would be if really denied them their rights under the law and viewed them as subhuman. but we don't. Instead, we accept the subhuman status as just the way things are.

Instead, we seem to accept our lot. We never say- "We'll talk to you Warren, but on our terms." It's always- let's be the bigger one by talking to them on theirs. Why does Warren not have to meet us half way. Why is Melissa Etheridge trying to defend the undefensible?

So, when you say- 'words matter.' Yeah, they do. but that requires first that gays not have lowered expectations of what we expect regarding our position as a minority group. If one goes in thinking, gay is  lesser, just like the majority,t hen it's hard to realize that the words are as harsh as they are. It's only when you realize that you carry around this baggage that you liberate yourself enough to be outraged.

For example, I am writing this story right now. It's about a gay character. But, the story is not protypically a "gay story" as one of my friends who read it said. His point was "why does this have to be a gay character?" My thought process used to be to change the character because it's not a "gay" movie.

Now, it's to question why he thinks gay characters are only suppose to appear in a certain way. Why are we creating these cages for ourselves? we pretend like its choice. but maybe, like with your question, it's more representative of accepting the views of the majority as the correct one. Thus making it harder to overcome. I would not know this if I had not already had spent most of my life addressing similar issues as a black guy.

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by: bruhrabbit3 @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 21:33:00 PM CST

It's Absolutely true

that many LGBTQ folks feel that we'll only make progress if we're "nice" - and the source of their feelings are self-hatred and self-doubt.

I got involved in Gay Liberation in 1969 - Stonewall year.  We were 'out' and public nearly all the time.  This terrified many A-list gays (there were a few at the time).  In the course of a few years we managed to make it possible for gay people to hold hands and dance in gay bars across the country, shone a bright spotlight on police brutality, got the mafia out of many gay bars, and removed homosexuality from the DSM.  We didn't do it by being nice.  We did it by being real, being honest, being ourselves, and having as much fun as we could at the same time.

People respect people who are just themselves.  They are amazingly open to reconsidering their opinions and beliefs - unless they suspect that you're a fake, or better-than-them.  

What we've got to do now is keep pointing out our vision - equal rights for everyone, freedom from fear, heartfelt discourse, etc.  After all, Rick Warren does not believe that Jews are loved by God.  He believes that dinosaurs and humans existed together.  He doesn't believe much in science.  He has worked to deny condoms and contraception to people in Africa.  

We can't be fakes and deal effectively with fakers like Warren.  The emotions must be real if we are to win hearts.  

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by: Dan B @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:24:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Most of us in the early gay movement

came out of the Rights Movement and used the methods of Saul Alinsky.  

Both of them used simple methods to gain acceptance.  We'd do well to revisit both for insight in how to achieve success.

We've got new grassroots organizations and incredibly strong energy to tap.  Now's the time to learn how to speed up the progress.  We've got to create a "now go out and make me do it." year for Obama (and a host of spineless Democrats)

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by: Dan B @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:30:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Do you have any sources you would recommend that I read?

I am curious about what you describe.

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by: bruhrabbit3 @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:34:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

rules for radicals

one of the alinsky books i'd recommend is his 'rules for radicals'.   another good source is gene sharp's book series on nonviolent action.

folk the war

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by: suejeffers @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 23:07:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Great book!

I second that recommendation.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 23:18:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My last reply seems to have vanished.

So here goes again:  'Rules for Radicals' was Alinsky's major work.  More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

Keep in mind that Gay Liberation copied many of the techniques even though the Industrial Areas Foundation still is homophobic... go figure?  We modified them to our ends.

The main aspect of the Civil Rights Movement that we utilized was going where you're not welcome, but where you should have the right to be.  
Short story: We organized a couple dances at the University of Chicago because dancing, and touching, a person of the same gender could result in arrest.  Chicago Police were off limits at the UC campus.  When we packed the biggest venue on campus to the point that few people were actually able to dance, we decided to rent the Cow Palace - forbidden territory for gay groups.  The week before the dance we learned the Vice Squad had requisitioned a hundred paddy wagons for the block next to the Cow Palace.  The Mafia took a contract on us (perhaps because they wouldn't allow dancing so we boycotted and picketed their largest gay-bar).  We prevailed with the head of the Vice Squad at the last minute.  I grabbed a guy I barely knew and dragged him onto the extremely slippery dance floor (dance wax on icy cold, and damp, concrete - don't do that) so the head of the Vice Squad could see two guys dancing together.  He relented, perhaps with the encouragement of the 90 ACLU attorneys in the lobby.

There are lots of places where LGBTQ people are not welcome in this country - most mega-churches, for instance.  We've got a growing grassroots movement that's learning how to do things in public to fill the void created by the passive, behind-closed-doors HRC approach. (It's necessary but not gonna get us there without the threat of people in the streets.)

Deciding where to be is the biggest hurdle - probably best left to a committee of fewer than 6.

Hope this helps;

Dan

P.S. Do you know of Bayard Rustin, the gay man who introduced MLK Jr. to non-violence - great leader!  

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by: Dan B @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 23:19:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This has what I have been advocating without an

audience to listen to me for months. that the problem with the gay communitiy is that it needs to leave the gay enclaves in order to re-enter the race of the country. This means- for instance in CA - no on 8 needed to have been in the reddest areas of the state. No in SF or LA, but Orange county and where ever else we thought it would be hard to win. We needed to have up images of black gay people and Latino gay people and poor gay people and blue collar gay people. I knew from watching milk that this used to be the view, but I didn't know that it was the way the gay movement saw it. Pardon my french- but what the hell happened?

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by: bruhrabbit3 @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 00:08:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What the hell happened?

We made significant gains in employment and housing. By the late 1980s, we were able to leave the gay ghettos and move to the suburbs.

By the mid-1990s, we were no longer marching and organizing on a grassroots level. Our movement was being turned over to professional activists and corporate-style organizations.

I was one of those white gay professionals who was finally able to get a high-paying corporate job. I moved from West Hollywood to a suburb 40 miles away from the city. I began to live a "normal" life and traded in my black leather jacket and Doc Martens for a navy blazer and loafers.

We assimilated -- at least those of us who could did. Left behind in the gay ghettos were those who can't blend in. The drag queens, hustlers, street kids and gay throwaways were abandoned.

For many of us, acceptance from our families became a reality. We were no longer being tossed out on the street in large numbers. It was safer to be out.

I think where we went wrong was not planning for partial equality. We all thought it would be all-or-nothing. Instead, we worked our way to invisibility. We learned that being "nice" had rewards and settled for it.

That's what happened.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 00:29:14 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Hear hear - and hurrahs too!

Nearly every successful initiative for the LGBTQ community has been won face to face with a public that hears terrible things about us from the most deranged people and from some of the kindest, nicest, and well-meaning folks.

I knocked on doorbells for one campaign that looked hopeless.  To this day I still remember the woman who said she didn't understand how I could support rights for "those people".  She saw the puzzled look on my face and a look of shock appeared on hers.  She realized that the clean-cut, ordinary looking guy on her front step was one of "those people". She thought every LGBTQ person was a leering drag queen, or a limp wristed fairy.  (full disclosure: I've been there and done that enough to know when scary drag is a hoot and when it's a disaster.)  

Suddenly confronted with someone she felt comfortable with she realized how wrong her understanding was.  I could see that she felt terrible for exposing her mistaken beliefs to me.  In a heartbeat a heart changed.

It's the only way we move this forward.  Angry demonstrations are not the answer.  Happy ones and laughter inducing creative actions in public can swell the ranks of the people who appreciate our humanity.

The same is true of respectful and firm disagreement.

Try Join the Impact.  It's on the way to generating a grassroots groundswell - stumbling a bit but headed in a good direction.  

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by: Dan B @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 01:00:29 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Angry demonstrations

I think angry demonstrations have their place.

Some people need to see our anger in order to be convinced that the cause is worthy of their attention.

But, it has to be carefully measured. It has to be appropriate.

Sad, mournful demonstrations can be effective, too.

A candlelight vigil in the memory of a murder victim can change a lot of minds.

Joy, anger, sadness. All of these emotions show people that we are real human beings.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 01:23:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

PS

this is why I love soulforce. They go to places gays are not suppose to go.

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by: bruhrabbit3 @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 00:08:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"accept the subhuman status"

It wasn't until the Goodridge marriage decision in MA that I realized that I had unconsciously accepted subhuman status.  Although I had fought anti-gay efforts through the years and kept friends informed as to how I was being discriminated against, deep down I felt hopeless and just figured that I'd always be a 2nd class citizen.

But when I heard the Goodridge news, I found myself pissed as hell at myself for realizing that I was wanting to thank the court for "giving" me my rights (No, they were mine all along, only illegally withheld.  Thus there was nothing to "give", only to rectify.).  That in turn made me realize that I had previously accepted subhuman status and hadn't even been aware of it.

Thank you MA Supreme Judicial Court for ruling justly, Mary Bonauto and GLAD for arguing the case and the Goodridge plaintiffs for pushing a boundary I didn't know I was toeing.  You have created more than marriage equality in Massachusetts.  You have created a tiger for civil equality who will never settle for 2st class citizenship again.

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:40:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My twin kept me from accepting it

I have an identical twin brother who is straight. In many ways, he's more firmly committed to fighting discrimination against LGBT people than his gay brother. He just does it in a different way.

My brother and I are the same in almost every respect -- except for sexual orientation. My brother has always been the one in my life who pushes me to see myself as equal.

It is difficult for someone who doesn't have a twin to know what it is like to have a discussion with an nearly identical mind. This life experience as taught me that sexual orientation is really a small compontent of what makes me who I am.

Imagine what it would be like to have a person in your life who is almost exactly like you. You like the same foods, have similar hobbies and political views, and almost never disagree. Then, imagine that your twin is straight (or gay for you staight folks). How significant do you think that difference would that be?

Most of the gay, lesbian and bi people I know think that their sexual orientation is a major part of who they are. They don't have that "straight mirror" to look in and see that it is really a fraction of their being. Most of our values and ideas are shaped by something else.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 23:15:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

the Stigma, the Self.

A great discussion point here. I think it truly is difficult to unpack the dual stigmas of having what can be refered to as a double minority status, and its often hard to convey the alienation involved in carrying it around. As for "soft bigotry", I often feel isolated because I fit very few stereotypical expectations for either group (black/gay). Ironically this never stops people from treating me like either a dancing bear ("My you're so well spoken...for a black guy"), or an exception to the rule ("I don't know about the rest of them gays, but I like drinking with you.")And yes, my parents were similarly skeptical about the likleihood of President Elect Obama being winning, and I attributed it to having grown up during the turbulent times of Jim Crow. They couldn't concieve of America actually seeing past the issue of race, because much of their experiences (and a good deal of mine) are so saturated by it. Similarly, there are gay men and women out there who've never been able to shake fully the Judeo-christian indoctrinization that those of Warren's ilk believe.

Internalized homophobia is widespread and something I hope we as a community can soothe soon. I hate to think there are people out there suffering a life of silent loathing.
I refuse to be told I'm a "bad" person just because of whom I happen to fall in love with and won't endorse an institution that vilifies people like me. Its that simple, but growing up in a Judeo-Christian culture it does become difficult at times to realize the entire scope of religious rejection.  Its a sad thing to think on, but there are just as many people in other minority groups that internalize the stereotypes and misconceptions seen through the dominant culture and assume them to be their reality. The Christian right is entirely allowed their sticks, stones and judgments. I'm fine over here in the cheap seats. None of us are monsters, and I patently refuse to accept the thinking that this is so just because some scriptures suggest it.


"So. What have we learned? We have learned the first lesson. They will always hate us... We must give the ordinary humans respect, compliance, and understanding. And we must never mistake that for trust." - Emma Frost, Astonishing X-Men, 1

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by: g_whiz @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 23:11:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I get the "are you sure you are ..." rhectorical question a lot

Are you sure you are gay? If I don't act in some way either gays or straights think I am suppose to act.

"You are the whitest black guy I know" if I don't act in some way that  whites or  other black folk believe I should behave.

I used to get angry. Now, I just tell them that if you are unsure if I am black, then looka t me. if you are unsure whether I am gay- see who I date and sleep with. That's all you need to know on both fronts.

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by: bruhrabbit3 @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 23:21:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Polite hate is EASIER to fight

Those who are more rational and open to discussion are more open to persuasion. They may have strongly held beliefs, but they are willing to listen to the other side and want to be viewed as good people.

Someone like Fred Phelps is a lost cause. He will never be open to a dialogue. His mind is closed and full of hate.

It is obvious that being called a bigot really bothers Rick Warren. It is causing him to think about the issue. He's not backpeddling in the recent video on his website. He's really trying to explain why so many people are upset by his views.

Right now, he's in that difficult denial stage. He doesn't want to accept that he's a bigot and that his words do us harm.

Rick Warren can probably be compared to the bigots in the 1960s who struggled to come to terms with their prejudices. In 20 years, it is likely that Warren's church will be accepting of homosexuality. He'll be embarrassed by his past statements.

So, it is actually better to focus on the Rick Warren's and Mike Huckabee's of the world. They are the ones who are most likely to see the light.

Monsters like Phelps and LaBarbera will remain bigots until the day they die.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 21:37:19 PM CST

Waymon, I agree

with you that some of the LGBT movement leadership has been too afraid to call out our enemies for what they truly are.  One can be honest, hard hitting and still remain on message.  As you say, hate is hate regardless of how it is packaged.  I believe that every Christianist lie and falsehood disseminated about LGBT Americans needs to be met with a response and the offensive taken against our detractors.

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by: Michael-in-Norfolk @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 21:58:32 PM CST

Race analogy

So when did we buy into the fact that polite hate is okay?  As long as you hate us with a smile and a nice cardigan sweater, we have to accept it?

I think it happened when calling someone a bigot became worse than actually being a bigot.

I've stopped counting the people I've run into online who can say all kinds of racist shit, but think that because they're not wearing a white sheets and burning a cross on someone's lawn, they can't possibly be racist. In a similar fashion, people can say "I'm not a bigot--I love my gay sister/daughter/uncle/fourth cousin twice-removed! I just don't think they should have the same rights as I do! And because they're not going out and beating up gay people, surely they can't be homophobic bigots.

I've started asking what word would be appropriate to use for someone who believes that GLBT folk don't deserve to be happy with the person we love. No answer yet.

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by: Darkrose @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:28:29 PM CST

AMEN!

I think it happened when calling someone a bigot became worse than actually being a bigot.

Many Blenders have already figured out that a lot of what I do here in my diaries and comments are experiments in measuring responses to issues like this.

In fact, I had a thread going a few weeks ago about drag queens and leather fetishists in which I tossed the word "bigot" around. I called a few people bigots (not really unjustified) and watched the fireworks go off.

Many people blew a gasket. They wrote that I'd called them the worst thing imaginable. I was vile and hateful for labeling them with that word.

The fact is, most of us have some prejudices. It is very difficult for us to admit it. As LGBT people, we often don't want to admit that we are bigots -- especially when it comes to members of our community who don't conform.

Ask any trans person what they have to deal with from this community. Most will tell you that they experience bonafide bigotry.

If we can't admit that there are bigots among us -- afraid to say the dreaded "B" word -- we can't defend using the word to describe the Rick Warrens of the world.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:56:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There's something we can do

even though it's a little step, if successful it could be a large public event because of the intense interest in Warren's invocation - and the passionate response it has provoked.  

http://www.couragecampaign.org...

This site is asking Warren to debate a pro-gay marriage minister,Reverend Eric Lee, who is also the leader of the Southern Christian Leadership Congress of Greater Los Angeles.  

A Christian leader debating another Christian leader is an entirely different ballgame.  There are millions of people in this country who are not aware that there are millions of pro-LGBTQ Christians.  

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by: Dan B @ Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 22:48:18 PM CST

I tried to post this

when that guy from Utah was on.

My parents love me, and they love my partner of 16 years. We're traveling out to Utah to visit them in a couple of days, and we know we're welcome to stay at their house - in the same room, in the same bed. They're nice people, they treat us well, and they're bigots. We're staying with my sister.

I don't blame them for being bigots, they're a product of the time and place they were born. They're not bigots because they're filled with hate, they really do think they're doing the best thing. But their mindset - the place they start from when they're deciding the best way to act - is a place of bigotry. Being gay is a disease or disorder, and so laws that "discourage" people from being gay are a good thing. I'm their son and they love me, but they love me in spite of the fact that I'm gay. It's an argument we've had for decades, now, and what we all finally decided is that we have to accept each other for who we all are. I've told them I'd rather they examine their beliefs and rethink them. They've told me they'd rather I was straight. I've told them it ain't gonna happen, so get over it.

At least they're equal opportunity bigots. They also believe Loving vs. Virginia was a bad decision and interracial marriage should still be illegal. For the poor children, who didn't ask to be born into a controversial family that would cause them ridicule and torment. It never occurs to them that eliminating the social stigma would be a better answer than discriminatory laws. There's no place in their world for that kind of thinking.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 07:14:17 AM CST

My dad recently changed

He had a quadruple bypass and faced death. Suddenly, he's voting Democrat and speaking out for gay rights.

I never thought I'd see it happen. We just had a wonderful telephone conversation yesterday. He told me about a debate he had with his minister regarding marriage equality.

The sad thing is that my brother and he are still estranged. My brother won't forgive Dad for his past actions (my brother married an Asian woman and Dad's racism destroyed their father-son relationship).

So, don't give up hope.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 11:07:51 AM CST

[ Parent ]

My dad

has probably made all the progress he's ever going to, and my hat's off to him for at least moving this far. He admits that he doesn't have the answers for anyone but himself.

He also recently admitted to me (privately and quietly, so my mother wouldn't hear) that he didn't vote for the Utah amendment to ban any recognition of same sex couples. He did it for his own reasons, not because he's had some kind of epiphany, but it's progress. My mother is a lost cause, I'm afraid. She does have all the answers, for everyone, whether they want them or not.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Wed Dec 24, 2008 at 11:56:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I know this thread is old

and y'all can let it die off, but there is nothing on this thread that I can't relate to. Thank you to all who contributed.

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by: kevinchi @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 21:19:22 PM CST