Always With The Bathroom; Always With The Misrepresentations

Here's my link

Yes on 8-style scare tactics in Florida

http://www.montereypride.org/2...

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:20:53 PM CST

My favorite recent (other) bathroom story

This is from wing nut Rev. Rob Schenck on his personal blog

"The sites and sounds of CHRIST-mas reach a long way, but
today I was struck with just how far is the reach of this
unique holy-day. Sure, I expect to see at least a few
nativity scenes on display, even in disputed territory.
Christmas carols are also ubiquitous, including in Burger
Kings and Wendy's. For some reason, though, hearing the
words to "O Holy Night" in a thruway men's room really made
an impression."

My mind immediately merges Schenck with Larry Craig and they are not singing in the thruway crapper.

"Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda"

http://tips-q.com

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by: davidhart @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:51:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My favorite recent (other) bathroom story

This is from wing nut Rev. Rob Schenck on his personal blog

"The sites and sounds of CHRIST-mas reach a long way, but
today I was struck with just how far is the reach of this
unique holy-day. Sure, I expect to see at least a few
nativity scenes on display, even in disputed territory.
Christmas carols are also ubiquitous, including in Burger
Kings and Wendy's. For some reason, though, hearing the
words to "O Holy Night" in a thruway men's room really made
an impression."

My mind immediately merges Schenck with Larry Craig and they are not singing in the thruway crapper.

"Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda"

http://tips-q.com

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by: davidhart @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:51:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Studies show Gay and Lesbians are less than1% of offenders but no mention of Transgender

Most studies now agree that there needs to be better terminology when describing sex offenders because it causes confusion in the mind of the public over this very subject.
On the blog Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation Dr. Herek points out

....Another problem related to terminology arises because sexual abuse of male children by adult men is often referred to as "homosexual molestation." The adjective "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator....

The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children - boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

In a more recent literature review, Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy (1998) similarly cautioned against confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. He noted, "The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women" (p. 259).
This well known lack of a linkage between homosexuality and child molestation accounts for why relatively little research has directly addressed the issue. Proving something we already know simply isn't a priority. Indeed, a commentary that accompanied publication of the 1994 study by Jenny et al. in Pediatrics noted that debates about gay people as molesters "have little to do with everyday child abuse" and lamented that they distract lawmakers and the public from dealing with the real problem of children's sexual mistreatment (Krugman, 1994).

.
This study was done in 1994 over the course of a year and NONE of the offenders are listed as being Transgender.....

Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified - only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

A very good friend of mine's father was a child molester who was finally arrested and sentenced to 20 years in prison.  This man assaulted his own children and many children in the neighborhood before finally being caught.  His mother was aware and chose to ignore it.
This man's father is the most prevalent type of child molester.  He is a family man appearing normal, friendly and sincere, does not care which sex the child is, knows his victims and is often in positions that will bring him close to children.


"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 20:02:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

yes, it's getting old

being continually portrayed as transgender predators. Grrr

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by: zythyra @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 16:47:49 PM CST

I wonder what the stats really are?

I bet less than one tenth of one tenth of a percent of child predators are transgender.

The number has to be unbelievably small -- nearly impossible.

Think about it. How many people are transgender? If you apply the same percentage of child predators that exists in the general population to the trans population how many people would that be? Ten in the entire country?

Silence of the Lambs be damned!

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 17:10:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Change one door to "hristian Bathroom"

with a big cross on the door, water on the floor to walk on and a basket by the sink for the tithe.

Change the other door to "Normal People".

There, problem solved.


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:33:57 PM CST

CHRISTIAN...

d'oh!

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:41:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The thing we have to hammer home...

We have to counter this idea that a predator could easily put on a dress.

In reality, for a guy that is not GID, putting on womens' clothing is almost impossible.

Guys-without-GID will also NOT put on makeup.  It's almost like it's poisoned or infectious.

The trick is to frame that idea so that as many people as possible 'get it.'

The H8-ers will try to say it's easy -- ALL he has to do is JUST don a skirt/wig/blouse/lipstick/etc.

Get them to prove it.  In front of the media.

Show up at a town hall meeting and challenge the H8-ers to put on women's clothing to demonstrate what they're talking about.  Challenge them to get a convicted predator to put on a dress and wig and wear it for a day with the cameras hanging around.

It ain't easy wearing women's clothing if you're not a TG/TS woman.

That's the meme we need to propagate.

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by: Hazumu @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 18:43:43 PM CST

What about we Lesbians?

We are in their restroms
We are in their changing rooms.
We are in their health club showers.

and they think that we are always recruiting...

So why aren't they trying to ban out Lesbians

(from the woman who earned her toaster oven by recruiting a Baptist Minister's wife)

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:02:35 PM CST

Holy Cow! That deserves more than a toaster over!

Maura, you get a full on kitchen for that!

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:09:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I mean oven........

oops

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:10:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

All in a day's work

Twas nothing, really...she was quite eager to come over to "the pink side of the force"

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:29:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Because they WANT

to see that kind of hawt lezabian po0rn. But the girlz have to be blonde coeds. Like Hefner and Flint types.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 23:27:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, isn't that scenario more likely without such a law?

If anyone with female genitalia or assigned female at birth has to use the women's room, and anyone with male genitalia or assigned male at birth has to use the men's room, you'll have transmen having to use the women's room. I've never seen a transwoman who liked like the adult actor in the commercial, but I do know some transmen whom no one would guess weren't bio men.  

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by: one jewish dyke @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 19:50:32 PM CST

It'd be fun to point that out at a city council meeting

Doing so would force Citizens for Good Public Policy or the equivalent at your local city council meeting to admit what they really want: not for transmen to use the women's restroom, but for transmen not to exist.

On second thought, they probably wouldn't be properly embarrassed by having to admit that...

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by: pgraydon @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 09:09:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

So now they're using Kiddie Porn Movie Trailers?

What other conclusion can be drawn? It's a professional production, and suggests that the producers have done this kind of thing before.
Are these people in Citizens for Good Public Policy part of a paedophile ring? Or merely associates? The police should be asked to investigate, considering the number of cases of paedophilia amongst people of like mind.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 22:31:41 PM CST

My apologies

I am trying to evolve on the transgender issue.  I really am.  I understand it much more now than I did a few years ago.  I did not watch the video because I knew it would be a distortion and piss me off.  
However - and I'm just being honest and I'm open to the fact that I'm not as enlightened as I should be on this - I just  don't see what's so horrible with the idea of a bathroom for those who have a penis and another one for those who don't.  It seems like opening this can of worms is not worth it - to expect that our society - which barely seems to tolerate gays often - will be able to be open to someone who appears to be a "man" in a dress use the women's bathroom, is a little out of reach.
That said, I think everyone has a right to fight for their perspective and I will continue to try to see things differently - but it's hard for me even as a gay guy.  I can imagine what a stretch it is for a "typical" American.
Please be patient with me - I'm not trying to be inflammatory or hurtful.  I just really struggle with this one.

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by: pt90048 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 22:40:26 PM CST

Here's what's so horrible

I just  don't see what's so horrible with the idea of a bathroom for those who have a penis and another one for those who don't.

Someone gets to decide, based on not being able to see what Person X's genitals are, whether or not to set the wheels of government oppression in motion to bring Person X before the Inquisition for genital inspection.

Who gets to be that someone?

You?

Mike Huckabee?

Ann Coulter?

Who?

If Person X has never had a penis, then what?  Does the Inquisition have any responsibility to compensate Person X for any embarrassment stemming from the incident?  What about whoever it was who decided to set the wheels of government oppression in motion?

And if Person X once had a penis but no longer does yet someone has presumed that anyone who looks like Person X does must have a penis, then what?  Does the Inquisition have any responsibility to compensate Person X for any embarrassment stemming from the incident?  Particularly if the incident outs Person X - and Person X's job is somewhere - like New York, Maryland, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Nevada or Hawaii - that is not protected by civil rights law?

Will you come to Person X's aid when next the rent comes due?

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 23:51:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There are many men who don't have a penis

More often than not has nothing to do with being transgender.

Genitals are often deformed at birth. Some men have lost their penises due to trauma. Others have had them removed because of cancer or deadly infections.

Would these men be barred from using the "penis only" restroom?

It shouldn't be anyone's business what a person has between his or her legs.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 01:43:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

assumptions

My partner, who is a bio woman and identifies as a butch lesbian, does not have a penis. Nevertheless, she has still been yelled out of women's bathrooms by people who looked at her and assumed that she did have a penis. It is a terrible, shaming experience to be screamed at in a public restroom (the worst incident was at Chuck E. Cheese--we were there for a friend's birthday party and a woman would not stop yelling about my partner in the women's room--'"that boy is trying to look at my daughter!"). I don't want this to happen to ANYONE, whether they are gay, bi, trans, intersex, or just non-gender normative.

My college had unisex bathrooms. Aside from the ick factor of boy mess (I know this is a stereotype but I grew up with 2 brothers and I have found that at least straight male standards of cleanliness often leave much to be desired), it was fine. As long as you can close the door to a stall, WHO CARES??  

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by: elizabethws @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 08:03:09 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This just dawned on me

Since its 'all about the children', why not maintain a restroom dichotomy - but make it a different one?  'Kids allowed' vs. 'kids not allowed'

Oh wait...

That would remove a reason for christianists to demonize us.  Can't have that.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 09:14:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

There are several problems with this

Firstly, by conceding on this, you are saying that it is acceptable that people be bigoted, that they "hate" on transgendered people, that they spread misconceptions about them, that they lie about them, as long as they make concessions on gays. You are selling one group of humans down the river to help another group. Even putting aside the ethical issues of doing so, there is the practical issue: the GLBT community isn't particularly large. It needs everyone. If you sell one group down the river to help another group, you are making it smaller, dividing it.

Furthermore, the thing with this issue, and any issue that the bigots are pushing is that in all likelihood they don't really care about this issue. At all. For most of them, this is just another skirmish in their war to limit the human rights of GLBT people. If you concede on this, they aren't going to away. They will just find another issue on which they want to curtail the rights of GLBT people. And so on to the point where they can curtail as many rights of GLBT people as they can.

Also, by conceding on this issue, the impression is going to be given, or at least that is what the bigots are going to argue, that the GLBT community does indeed agree that transgendered people committing sexual assault is indeed a legitimate issue, and not just scaremongering FUD spread by the bigots.

There is also the practical issue of having a bathroom for those with penises and those who don't. A transgendered person who hasn't yet fully transitioned, still with a penis, but is already taking hormones etc, can't be expected to use a male bathroom. In which case, is every place, every building with bathrooms going to have to make a new bathroom then, that is 3 bathrooms? What if they won't?

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by: rfloh @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 02:09:09 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What's so horrible is that it's about prejudice based on attributes

Excluding a class of people because of their physical attributes is prejudicial discrimination, plain and simple.  We can easily see how by changing the words and asking, ". . .what's so horrible with the idea of a bathroom for those who have brown skin and another one for those who don't?"

The standard by which people ought to be judged on is behavior.  Using a physical attribute to separate and marginalize a minority is the same thing that Jim Crow laws did.  Perhaps this is something we ought to point out when we fight these hateful ads?

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by: Emelye Waldherr @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 07:01:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

One for penises, one for vaginas

There are numerous problems with this scenario.

1. What about people with intersex conditions who have ambiguous genitalia?

2. What about transmen, most of whom don't have genital surgery? I'm in transition and passing as male most of the time, but, with the exception of the changes caused by testosterone, my genitalia is female. Because I'm not passing 100% of the time (primarily due to my large, impossible to hide, breasts--I'm saving up for top surgery, but that takes time), using the men's room could compromise my safety. I am fortunate that I'm able to avoid the use of public restrooms for the most part because I don't have to spend much time in public spaces, but not everyone has that luxury.

At work, where I've been since the beginning of transition, I still use the women's restroom. But, after a few uncomfortable encounters with women who didn't know me, I've started using restrooms at the farthest reaches of the building, which get the least traffic. I don't mind because I drive a forklift and can drive to those locations quickly. But again, not everyone enjoys this luxury.

3. The men's restroom is unsafe for transwomen, period. They should not be expected to compromise their own safety for the sake of other people's prejudices or discomfort.

4. Most trans people of both genders spend a period of time in gender limbo during transition, being perceived as one sex by some observers and the other sex by other observers. This can last several years, depending on a person's bodily characteristics and how long it takes to save up for various surgeries. And then there are some people who will never pass completely.

In summary, this is a safety issue. That's what it boils down to.

Tax the Christian Taliban!

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by: Wolfgang @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 15:22:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

How about vibes in the womans room?

Since they are so upset with the possibility of a pre-op transwoman molesting someone in the ladies room, maybe they should search all bags for vibrators before one does their business. Seems they could do the same type of damage as us (in their minds) potential predators.

That's the real threat.  More vibes around than transsexuals...

Dena

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 23:19:55 PM CST

Stay outta my purse! ;)

Hey, there's just something about... mmmm, white cracked porcelin, wet brown paper towel strewn on the floor ...ooooh, harsh PUNISHING toilet paper, knowing someone is RIGHT OUTSIDE... oh-oh-oh- graffiti! Oh! Oh! Locks of door, cracks in the partitions! Toe tapping feet, SOOOOO CLOSE!!!

Ah, that's better.... hey, you got more tp over there, sir? Er, officer?

Uh-oh.


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 23:34:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sorry I peeked Louise ;)

Don't forget those Chick bible tracts laying on the toilet.

Creepy...

Dena

.

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 01:51:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It's still strange to me when I visit Europe

and happen upon a unisex rest room. Other than it being out of the ordinary for me to be washing my hands next to a man, it's not a problem. (In Europe the stalls are usually floor-to-way-over-my-head anyway, so it's not as if anyone can see anything.) This would probably make bathrooms safer - how many times have you seen a mother waiting for her small son or father waiting for his small daughter, calling into the rest room to make sure the child is ok? I've also seen boys who look as old as eight years old with their mothers, because the mother isn't afraid of the predator in the bathroom, but the one who might kidnap her son while he waits outside the bathroom. We would get used to unisex bathrooms quickly, and in a few years we'd be remarking on how strange it was that for so long, rest rooms were gendered.

The only argument against it that I have is that I know that every time I use a (single, locking) men's room it is disgusting, with urine on the floor and toilet seat. I've been in some disgusting women's bathrooms too, but men's rooms are often dirty. I know plenty of men who find rest rooms gross too, and are amazed if they see the inside of a women's rest room which is often cleaner and nicer. Since I won't paint all men as slobs and all women as considerate users of facilities, how about this proposal: we keep the two bathroom system, but split users into those who clean up after themselves, and those who are going to pee on the floor or not flush? ;)

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by: one jewish dyke @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 03:51:08 AM CST

I had similar thoughts

Particularly about predators in bathrooms and the safety of being there with trusted acquaintances.  I remember an incident on a beach near where I grew up in which a young boy was murdered while his mother waited outside.

Also about restroom cleanliness.  I wonder though: if people grew up with unisex restrooms, wouldn't the peer pressure be enough to keep the restroom slobs in line?  The women I shared a toilet with growing up taught me the Men's Piss Procedure, mostly by making my life miserable every time I left the lid up.  I should think that, if you started early enough, men's public restroom habits could be shaped using similar techniques.

It also occurs to me that unisex bathrooms are a good idea for a variety of reasons not yet mentioned here:

• It's more efficient use of space
• Eliminates the problem of having to boot everyone out while female staff clean men's toilets and vice-versa
• Less waiting when one bathroom has a queue and the other doesn't
• Reinforces the message that all people are equal regardless of sex or gender

There are probably more that I've missed.

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by: pgraydon @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 09:33:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]