The New York Post makes its case for a post-racial America

Don't you know?

It's not racist because it's a joke.

Or something. What's the excuse they're using these days?

---

by: Bachalon @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:05:24 PM CST

I have

seen some pretty convoluted explanations in the blog world today to explain away the racial implications of this editorial piece of racist s**t...Nancy Pelosi and Congress actually wrote the stimulus bill, etc. etc...

Yeah right...

Even in that case, what is very explicit is that this cartoon is calling for a political assassination, probably of the President of the United States. I trust that the Secret Service is at the office of the New York Post right now.

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by: kevinchi @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:09:47 PM CST

You and me both.

The worst comment was someone saying that it's only racist speech if it was intended as such.

I'm honestly shocked at the back flips some people are doing so they don't have to state the obvious.

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by: Bachalon @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:18:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

http://gawker.com/5155855/ten-masterpieces-from-sean-delonas

If I would have had doubts about Delonas being a far right idiot, they would be away now.

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by: Chris From Old Europe @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:11:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

the only possible explanation that I can come up with

for this cartoon is that MAYBE the thought was supposed to be that if the current stimulus bill fails and they have to find someone else to write another one, at least they won't be able to offer the job to this chimp who was recently killed.

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by: timNC @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:16:24 PM CST

no explanation will fly...

Sam Stein at Huff Post noted:

In the page preceding a New York Post cartoon that depicts drafters of the stimulus legislation as a gun-downed chimpanzee, the paper published a large photo of Barack Obama signing that very piece of legislation.

The succession of the story and cartoon creates a rather jarring visualization for some readers. One person who pointed out the layout to the Huffington Post expressed bewilderment that anyone "would think that this is okay."

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:26:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, maybe I

should post this gallery of Sean Delonas other cartoons. Jim McGreevey comes up in 2 of them.

http://gawker.com/5155855/ten-...

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by: kevinchi @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:18:26 PM CST

Thanks for the post.

I don't even know what to say to some of those.

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by: Bachalon @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:24:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Here's an update from AP

It is not the first time that Delonas, the longtime cartoonist for the Post's Page Six, has raised eyebrows with a heavy-handed caricature.

An earlier Delonas cartoon made fun of Paul McCartney's ex-wife Heather Mills for having only one leg, and another compared gay people seeking marriage licenses to sheep lovers. In a cartoon last month, an enormous Jessica Simpson dumps boyfriend Tony Romo for Ronald McDonald.

---

by: exfundie @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:32:21 PM CST

A timely quote from the first black AG

I think the words of Attorney General Eric Holder, who called for a national dialogue on race today, are appropriate:

Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial, we have always been, and we, I believe, continue to be, in two many ways, a nation of cowards. Though race related issues continue to occupy a significant portion of our political discussion, and though there remain many unresolved racial issue in this nation, we, average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about things racial

 

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 16:34:53 PM CST

The timing of his words could not be better

The cartoon is appalling. It is even worse than I imagined it would look like.  The fact that the cartoon was inked, the fact that a major newspaper would approve it and print it, the fact that there are folks defending the cartoon, all these things point to a major lack of understanding. (I would call it "ignorance" but I am trying to be charitable.)  

Attorney General Holder's words couldn't be more forcefully underlined than the publication of this cartoon today.

If you want allies, you have to be an ally.

---

by: dale @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:34:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes!

Of course, there will be a wringing of hands and wailing by Limbaugh et al tomorrow regarding AG Holder's statement, but he is absolutely correct.

We cannot move forward as a nation, until we confront racism and every other form of intolerance and hatred every time they appear.

Chris Matthews discussed this photo within the first 2 minutes of his show tonight, but not as harshly as I would have liked...  

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 19:04:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I was out "appointmenting" today...

...but if you hadn't already posted on this cartoon before I got home, I would have posted on this.

This kind of -- well, at best, racially insensitive cartoon, and at worst, intentionally racist cartoon -- is an example of why we need to push a national dialogue on race that isn't just something individual African-Americans end up bringing up and/or dialoging about.

I believe all of us need to point out racism when we see it, and bring the subject up in conversations with others when we see blatent, and even subtle, racism.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 21:35:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"Freedom of speech! Freedom of speech!"

"Freedom of religion!  Freedom of religion!  We're Christians, so we can say or do anything we want to anyone we want to do it to!  How dare you try to impinge on our rights as Christians!  Freedom of Speech!  Freedom of religion!"

If Delonas hasn't joined the usual right-wing chorus yet, he will by tomorrow.  I am so damn sick of these people.  Given that America has yet to develop a true civilization, they do everything they can to keep it from happening.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 17:06:17 PM CST

Generally I am

in favor of free speech, even if it's provacative, sexist, racist, homophobic, etc.

But if you dish it out, be ready to take it, that's really my issue with the Talibangelists. Because the persecution defense is baseless. And the outright lies and hypocrisy is disgusting.

As distasteful and racist as the chimp is in this cartoon (in all of it's racist implications), it's within that realm (but see my condition, be prepared for demonstrations and all the blowback that you deserve, Murdoch).

It's the explicit call for a political assassination, probably of the President of the United States, that takes this into the territory of the obscene and possibly criminal, IMO

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:19:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You know this might not be a popular view but...

...when I first saw this cartoon without any of the commentary about why it's racist, the first associated image that popped into my mind was that of monkeys banging on typewriters and eventually (statistically) creating each work of Shakespeare which immediately made me think of the South Park episode where they indicated that dolphins in a tank randomly choosing storylines explained why Family Guy was so "off-beat".

Then it suddenly occurred to me, having also had previous knowledge of the monkey being shot story, that even if the artist had intended such a high-minded critique of Obama's stimulus bill and how it came about (a very valid opinion), it would/could NEVER be taken that way in the public sphere.

I'm not trying to defend the use of the cartoon at all.  It was poor judgment whatever its intentions (since art/commentary is not created in a vacuum and prevailing circumstances should always be considered when just tossing stuff out there), but I would like to inject a bit of perspective on such a hot-button issue as race and perception.  It was completely irresponsible and insensitive and I find it hard to think that people smart enough to get jobs at the Post would be completely unaware of the implication, but one must also remember that there are different symbolic meanings of the animal monkey, particularly when it comes to monkeys creating things.

Kind of reminds me of when you have a white guy tell a black joke that includes the word "nigga" because he hears black people use it all the time and not understanding that you JUST DON'T DO THAT.  Whatever your intentions, you just don't do it.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

---

by: popsiclestand @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:31:37 PM CST

Also can I add in case it wasn't clear...

Cartoon = absolutely classless.

How this passed the editor with a thumbs up, I will never understand.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

---

by: popsiclestand @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:44:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And I

would understand that. I don't expect that evryone (particularly a younger generation of non-POC) would get it from jump street. I am OK

But place this cartoon within the further context with Delonas other cartoons in that gallery and within the context of the page layout that Pam described. Delonas's intentions become very clear.

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:44:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh yeah, it is very clear....

...that this was meant to be racially provocative.  No doubt about that.

But I can see this guy's creative process too...

a.  "Oh, you know this stimulus bill is just like that adage about monkeys banging on typewriters.  Wait, there was a monkey shot and killed today?  Great, I have my cartoon idea!"

b.  "Hold on, that maybe seen as racist.  It'll look like I'm comparing Obama to a monkey and that never goes over well."

c.  "Hey, what do I care about racial sensitivity.  Those who get offended can kiss my a**.  It's completely funny in this post-racial America."

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

---

by: popsiclestand @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 18:51:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Had he not wanted to appear racist

There are any number of potential captions for this cartoon that would avoid racism:

"He was mad he didn't get a tax break in the stimulus"

"Turns out his 'Super-Chimp' farm idea wasn't 'shovel-ready'"

"Hey! At least we still have jobs"

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by: CPT_Doom @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 19:59:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Haha. Those are pretty funny.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

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by: popsiclestand @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 20:35:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, there are different symbolic meanings of the animal monkey

But, when used in reference to someone of African descent, the meaning, whether in the US, Canada, Europe, or South America, or Asia, is clear.

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:05:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Watch by tomorrow

By tomorrow, Delanos will be cited as a patriot of free speech by folks who simultaneously whine about the eroding of values in America.

Definition of irony, don't you think?

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 19:17:07 PM CST

CNN's Roland Martin

weighed in on the outrage here.

And Pam? He used the same tie-in to Eric Holder's words that you did, to equally excellent effect.  

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 19:37:33 PM CST

Is this where Delonas learned his trade?

From the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/ne...

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 20:26:20 PM CST

I've got an idea...

Let's all write to Dr. David Pilgrim, the curator of the Jim Crow Museum at Ferris State University, and ask him to add Sean Delonas' cartoon to his exhibit.

Here's his e-mail address:

pilgrimd@ferris.edu

Here are the museum's objectives:

Objectives of the Jim Crow Museum

Collect, exhibit and preserve objects and collections related to racial segregation, civil rights and anti-Black caricatures.

Promote the scholarly examination of historical and contemporary expressions of racism.

Serve as a teaching resource for Ferris State University courses which deal, directly or indirectly, with the issues of race and ethnicity.

Serve as an educational resource for scholars and teachers at the state, national and international levels.

Promote racial understanding and healing.

Serve as a resource for civil rights and human rights organizations.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 20:32:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Post Chimp Cartoon

During the fall elections, my blog (http://washingtonscandal.blogspot.com/) got quite a bit of traffic from my coverage and tracking of the distasteful Obama/Noose advertisement that appeared and then was taken down, including several thousand visitors from here. I only give this history as background...

Sorry, but do not feel the Post Cartoon was racist, nor do I feel it was aimed at Obama.  I can think of numerous chimp/monkey related jokes and references when it comes to Washington, DC and the politicians found there...as example, it was fairly common place to tie Bonzo Goes to Washington and Ronald Reagan together almost 30 years ago.  I've seen better cartoons, feel this one missed its mark, but do not see how people like Al Sharpton and Roland Martin are making the connection...Obama DID NOT WRITE THE BILL, Nancy Pelosi and Congress wrote it.

What disturbs me, is how quickly everyone has jumped on this cartoon, especially key figures in the Black Community, but those same people have chosen to ignore Eric Holder's name calling today when he called us Americans Cowards when it came to discussing race.  Maybe some people need to get a bit thicker skin, accept the fact that POLITICAL FIGURES ARE FAIR GAME FOR ATTACK.  Obama may be America's first black president, but first and foremost he is President Obama, a political figure that IS FAIR GAME, which means people are going to write nasty posts about him, and political cartoonist are going to create cartoons that depict him in a negative light...sorry folks, comes with the territory so even if this cartoon WAS AIMED AT HIM, that is a part of the price you pay as President.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 21:57:14 PM CST

And as I said above

I would have no problem with this far as free speech is concerned evenif it were simply an extremely and highly offensive racist (which

This cartoon, at the very least, is explicitly calling for the assassination of the "chimp" that wrote the stimulus bill. Technically, that would be Nancy Pelosi and the Congress, though Barack Obama signed it.

As Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi is 3rd in line to become President if the United States. The cartoon strongly suggests (look at Pam's layout) that Obama should be the target of assassination.

And how many people in Sarah Palin's America is so in tune with the news that they would know that Nancy Pelosi and the Congress actually did write the stimulus plan? Obama's was on TV pushing for a stimulus plan. The perception would be that it is Obama's plan.

It's the assassination component of this cartoon that makes it obscene and, possibly, criminal.

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 22:14:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"Sorry, but do not feel the Post Cartoon was racist..."

So? Many people do. Why do you you think you're the one who gets to make the call? I am willing to bet money that you're white. Aren't you?

Al Sharpton has been a civil rights activist for the past 40 years. I think he's a credible expert on the subject. I think I'll believe him when he says that the cartoon is racially offensive. Roland Martin is a well-respected African American journalist. I think his background qualifies him as an expert on newspaper editorial issues -- in particular those involving racism.

Also, Ronald Reagan was WHITE. Making fun of Reagan for appearing in a film with a chimp isn't racist. It just means he made a really bad movie.

I totally agree with Eric Holder. There are many cowards in America who are afraid to tackle the issue of race.

There are also too many stupid white people who would rather argue that racism they don't understand or doesn't impact them directly isn't worth debate.

Being "fair game" doesn't include racist cartoons because racism impacts an entire class of people. It isn't just limited to the politician as a personal attack.

Cartoons that attacked Mitt Romney for being Mormon were wrong for the same reason. Depicting him as a polygamist or wearing "magic underwear" were acts of religious bigotry. It had nothing to do with his politics and insulted an entire religious group.

The fact is, most people know that the Stim is Obama's. It is his first significant legislative effort. Even if the cartoonist didn't intend the chimp to represent Obama, the Post editor should have recognized that many people would view it that way.

Just because a man is color blind, that doesn't mean that the colors red and green don't exist. Likewise, just because you don't recognize something as being racist, that doesn't mean that it isn't racist. You're just blind to the racism due to ignorance and lack of experience.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 22:41:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ignorance, lack of Experience?

"The fact is, most people know that the Stim is Obama's. It is his first significant legislative effort. Even if the cartoonist didn't intend the chimp to represent Obama, the Post editor should have recognized that many people would view it that way."

So now we should curtail Freedom of the Press because SOME PEOPLE or MANY PEOPLE could/would read or view something in a particular fashion...what is next, BOOK BURNING?  So what, Al Sharpton and Roland Martin took offense to the cartoons, these are not the Political Cartoon Gestapo. Their reactions are beginning to SMELL of the same radical islamic stench and tactics used when political cartoons depicting Allah in a bad light appeared in Danish newspapers...what is next, riots in the streets of New York and Washington to drive home the point, maybe a JIHAD ordered against the New York Post? The cartoonist has issued a statement, explained the actual intentions...if that is not good enough for Al Sharpton and Roland Martin that is their problem, not something worthy of being turned into a National News Story so that they can stroke their own egos.

Just because a man is color blind, that doesn't mean that the colors red and green don't exist. Likewise, just because you don't recognize something as being racist, that doesn't mean that it isn't racist. You're just blind to the racism due to ignorance and lack of experience.

Just because one man sees a percieved slight, or thinks one cartoon is racist does not make it so.  It is a two way street my friend.  Roland Martin says POO TA TOE, I say Po TAT O...is the vegetable still the same freaking SPUD? You do not like my opinion on the issue so you stoop to accusing me of ignorance, inferring my 53 years on this earth still leave me lacking in experience?

Curious here...do you see anything wrong with Latino's calling whites GRINGO, or Blacks calling us HONKEY or WHITEY?  Just curious here why it is that so many in the Black Community are quick to POINT FINGERS, but never want to discuss their own RACISM against others.  Maybe when we can have that discussion simultaneously with discussion like this we can find the way across that bridge to what ever comes next after we have elected our first Black President...just a pity that we cannot even bask in that victory for more than a few weeks before the fighting begins.


Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:47:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You must understand Penstinger

I wish everyone could have an honest conversation about race but people like you believe having an honest conversation about race means condoning racist cartoons that advocate violence against the president. It means wanting to dismantle affirmative action, whether or not whoever supports it. It requires everyone to have your opinion on Al Sharpton and Roland Martin and any other black or hispanic person who gripes you. In order to have a real conversation on race, to people like you, is to also have your ideology and beliefs.

Political correctness is only 50% of the problem.

Anyway, you're just a "political incorrect" version of The Victim.

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:30:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Wrong Again Citi

Wrong again Citi, but what can I expect out of a person that has the name of a Criminal Bank in their name...how much did Citi get in the bailout? $25 Billion?

I don't expect you too hold or even agree with my positions, but I do expect you to allow me the same freedom to express mine that you are insisting for Sharpton and Martin.  I don't like Martin, so sue me...as for Sharpton...I actually like the man, enjoyed his brief run for President...does that mean I have to agree with him every time he runs to the news crews screaming FOUL? In case you have forgotten, he has not ALWAYS BEEN RIGHT when he makes an allegation.

Hispanic people do not gripe me...unless they are here in America ILLEGALLY...but then someone from Ireland that is here ILLEGALLY gripes my ass just as much...care to accuse me of being racist against the Irish now? (as note, part of my heritage is Irish)

Yes, I want to DISMANTLE Affirmative Action, or change the way it works so that advantages is given to people based on their FINANCIAL SITUATION ONLY, instead of a program that rewards people based no their difference in skin color or other physical attributes.  Even more RADICAL...I think every American Citizen should be entited to a College Education.  That said, I also OPPOSE the Dream Act.

I have not said you are NOT entitled to your belief that the cartoon in question is racist...but what MAKES YOU RIGHT and ME WRONG.  The Editorial Staff at the Post felt the cartoon was fine...obviously intelligent minds have come down on two different sides on what the cartoon does or does not represent...problem is folks like you think you can shout me and others down because we hold a different opinion on the subject.  I targeted Roland Martin because he threw himself into the FRAY as a public figure, and because I do not like him as a man...IE, totally disagree with his belief that Valentine's Day is a BOGUS HOLIDAY mean to separate men from their hard earned money, and I wrote a blog post taking exception to his belief.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:55:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Penstinger believes connecting a person's internet name to a bank

disqualifies their ideals. Classy.

I couldn't even read the rest of your post. You're a sad individual Penstinger and frankly not worth my or anyone else's time.

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:05:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Several points

Was this a history of whites being slaves of black people in the US, systemically? And even when slavery ended, did whites have to deal with a system of discrimination, a system of intimidation?

Secondly, let's say a group of white sports fans make monkey sounds at an athlete of African descent. They insist that it is not racist. No, not racist at all. They were just trying to intimidate the athlete representing the opposing team. Yet, they did no such thing against the opposing athlete's white players. Nope, not racist at all.

Thirdly, your slippery slope argument. Actually, no, no book burning is necessary. The cartoonist, or you, have a right to call Obama whatever you want. And people have a right to call you racists. To right letters of complaint to the newspaper that the cartoonists writes for. While it may surprise you, and Sarah Palin, your right to freedom of speech does not trump the right to freedom of speech of other people. You want to compare Obama to a monkey? Go ahead. That is your right. And people have a right to call you a racist. They have a right to not buy the newspaper that you work for. ( I am aware that you do not work for the newspaper, this is a hypothetical).

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:01:14 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What a surprise

that you're white. Never would have guessed.

I love this part:

What disturbs me, is how quickly everyone has jumped on this cartoon, especially key figures in the Black Community, but those same people have chosen to ignore Eric Holder's name calling today when he called us Americans Cowards when it came to discussing race.

You're so wrong on this one, it's laughable. First, Holder's comments WERE mentioned in connection with this thread and story- repeatedly- it's just that I and others AGREE with Mr Holder's views. The CNN story I linked was an editorial from CNN's Roland Martin, who made the same connection that Pam did.

So get off your priviledged white male ass and STFU. You're making all white men look bad and some of them aren't.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:42:40 AM CST

[ Parent ]

OK, Royce

Yes, some blacks and latinos can be prejudiced or even bigoted and whites. Very, very, very few blacks and Latinos have the power in this society to actually perpetuate racism.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:32:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

But do understand

at much of that prejudice and bigotry exists because of multiple systems of oppression set up to perpetuate white supremacy.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:33:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You seem a BIT HOSTILE

"So? Many people do. Why do you you think you're the one who gets to make the call? I am willing to bet money that you're white. Aren't you?"

I never said I GET TO DECIDE, but I DO GET TO STATE MY OPINION, or is that something denied to me now that we have our FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT?  Fair question since you are asking me if I am WHITE...for the record, yes I am.

"Al Sharpton has been a civil rights activist for the past 40 years. I think he's a credible expert on the subject. I think I'll believe him when he says that the cartoon is racially offensive. Roland Martin is a well-respected African American journalist. I think his background qualifies him as an expert on newspaper editorial issues -- in particular those involving racism."

You are entitled too your opinions, and entitled to believe any one you want...by the way, turning the table on you, ARE YOU BLACK?  Those men are entitled to their opinions, but unless this is Afghanistan, and they are Taliban Tribal Leaders and Islamic Clerics calling for a Jihad their opinion is NOT THE WORD OF GOD (or Allah).  Last I looked we still lived in America, and though some might disagree, we still live in a Democracy where different opinions are allowed.  Did I miss a MEMO, or am I correct on this point? With no disrespect meant, I have no desire to live in a nation where RADICAL IDIOTS hold riots in the streets because some cartoonist depicted ALLAH in an unsavory light, and this whole affair is beginning to have a similiar STENCH to it.

"Also, Ronald Reagan was WHITE. Making fun of Reagan for appearing in a film with a chimp isn't racist. It just means he made a really bad movie."

You have no problems with Reagan being compared to, tied to a chimp because he is White...so, it is FINE for WHITE PRESIDENTS to be compared to monkeys?  If Monkeys are off limits, how about we agree to make them off limits FOR EVERYONE, and then no one has to worry about being OFFENDED with the use of monkeys in cartoons...while we are at it, can we ALL AGREE TO SIMPLY BAN THE N word?  Believe it or not, I am offended by the word no matter who gives voice to it.  I'd also like us to all agree that Gringo, Whitey, Honkey and Cracker are ALSO OFF LIMITS.

"I totally agree with Eric Holder. There are many cowards in America who are afraid to tackle the issue of race."

I can agree with this...can we agree that SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE BLACK?  Or is it your belief that only White people are afraid or unwilling to discuss the issue of race?

"There are also too many stupid white people who would rather argue that racism they don't understand or doesn't impact them directly isn't worth debate."

STUPID WHITE PEOPLE...sounds like you have your own COLOR ISSUES that you need to deal with. Care to talk about some Black people that don't want to admit their own blatant racist views against Whites, Hispanics, Gays and Homosexuals? (Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Mr. Farrakhan) What about those of us that understand the supposed or  real issues as dealing with its aftermath AFFECT THEM in a negative way?  Or do you NOT acknowledge that many people unfairly have to pay the price of Affirmative Action?  

Here is a CLUE...I was raised in a DIRT POOR FAMILY, had my own set of challenges growing up, so tell me why it is that I had to lose out on some GOOD JOBS in the name of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION in the name of leveling the playing field...one mans fairness doctrine is another man's doctrine of oppression.  How about if we could all agree that the past 30 plus years of Affirmative Action has leveled the field enough that the time has come to do away with it, and start practicing EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL for a change instead of race based SPECIAL RIGHTS.

I already know you will strongly disagree with that, but since Eric has challenged us to HAVE THE TALK, explain to me why it is that you, why the Black Community thinks it is fair that I have to pay a price for a crime I had nothing to do with, why it is that I have to miss out on my own opportunity of the American Dream in the name of Affirmative Action.  From my perspective, at some point there has to be a point where the word ENOUGH applies, where that debt the Black Community feels is owed to them is marked, "PAID IN FULL".

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:21:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"I DO GET TO STATE MY OPINION"

No. You don't get to say that the cartoon isn't racist or that your opinion regarding this issue carries any weight.

You are a white man. You aren't the target of this kind of racism. You certainly have the right to voice your ignorant views. That doesn't mean they are valid or carry the same weight as those of people who are victims of racism.

You need to consider the possibility that others have life experiences that are different from your own. There are people who have been the victims of horrible acts of racism. They have been treated as less than human and compared to animals -- for hundreds of years!

I've heard your bullshit about "special rights" and complaints about affirmative action before from Rush Limbaugh, David Duke and every other racist loudmouth in the country. We all have.

I certainly don't like being called a "honky" or "cracker" -- but my blond hair and white skin gives me an advantage in this world. I've never been denied a job or housing because of my race. I know that just the opposite is true. I always got the best summer jobs when I was a kid -- working at Disneyland, doing TV commercials, etc. I was the "all American boy" that everyone wanted to hire. That has continued until this day.

I can't compare the rare and insignificant occassions that I've been the victim of racism with that of people of color. I've never suffered anything other than hurt feelings. Nobody in my family has ever been lynched or dragged to death behind a pick up truck.

White Americans have certainly not made enough reparations for slavery and Jim Crow. When African American families finally achieve economic parity, that will be "enough." When African Americans aren't unfairly targeted by law enforcement and imprisoned in disproportionate numbers, that will be "enough."

These are the things that Eric Holder was talking about. Things are going to change in America. Now that we have an African American president and Attorney General, law enforcement and our judicial system is going to stop targeting the African American community. The cowards who were in charge have been replaced by men and women who will change the racist status quo. That's what's going on.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:58:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Fritz...get a clue

Curious here...when is it time for Blacks to take responsibility for themselves and where they are at in life? Sorry, I did not get the job at Disneyland, did not work at the Country Club as a kid, was not a model.  I lived in many instances on the same streets with those blacks you speak about that got no advantage.  You are right, we all have DIFFERENT experiences growing up and living life.

You say you don't have an experience you can remember where you did not get the job you wanted because it was given to a Black Person, where I can list numerous tiems (especially in the 70's) when Union Jobs were denied to me because Affirmative Action dictated that the companies had to hire minorities (one example...job applied for at International Harvestor in Springfield Ohio)

Perhaps Affirmative Action seems fair to those that actually DO LIVE A LIFE OF PRIVILEDGE, but if you grow up on the same economic rung as someone else that is getting a helping hand up, and you are not, there is going to be resentments.  That is the problem with lots of what our Government tries to do...IE, Illegal Aliens...Of Course Big Business and Government are for them...they are NOT affected by them in a negative way.  No disrespect to Mr. Obama, but illegal aliens are not going to be living 30 or 40 to a house in his neighborhood, are not going to be stealing his landscaping job, or lowering wages for the job that he does have.  (Look at Sheetrocking industry as one example, meat packing as another where illegal aliens in the work force have staggered the wage base downward.)

See, from my perspective, from my life experience, I think people have paid enough for PAST CRIMES committed by people generations LONG GONE. I think that because it is the whites on the lower rungs of the Economic Ladder that end up paying the price to level the playing field...now the Black Community may not like it, but poor people regardless of their color face pretty much the same set of problems, and need/deserve the same CHANCES at the Brass Ring that the Black Community is demanding for themselves.  Sorry, that ME FIRST does not work for me any more...I want to see a system put into place that GIVES EVERYONE a fair shake, and like it or not, Affirmative Action DOES NOT DO THAT.

You see the glass half empty...Whites have not made enough reparations.  I see it differently, feel those that had nothing to do with the Black Community's historical complaints have suffered enough to clear off the wrongs of the past.  I see it that way because I am in the segment of the White Society that has actually PAID A PRICE to level the playing field...but that is an inconvenient truth isn't it?

I don't care for, nor respect "THE YOU OWE ME MENTALITY" that too many seem to have in this day, in this time.  IE, 12-15 Million Illegal Aliens screaming to any one that will listen that WE OWE THEM CITIZENSHIP...no, we owe them a bus ticket back home, are tired of them depressing our wages (by over $200 Billion a year) and stealing our jobs (yes, Americans will take landscaping jobs, construction jobs, jobs in the various services industries). Tired of CRIMINALS (of any color) saying they are wrongfully convicted, or that their crimes were committed because of the environment in which they were raised...BULLSHIT! I lived in slums, lived in walk ups where you had to nail tin can lids over holes in the floor that rats had chewed through.  

I don't want your pity, but I also don't want any one of any color to keep telling me I OWE THEM.  Sorry, but from my perspective, based on MY LIFE EXPERIENCES it is time to punch the ticket PAID IN FULL, time to stop Affirmative Action and replace it with a system that gives ALL ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED PEOPLE a leg up in life regardless of their race, creed or sexual orientation. IF you think that makes me a bigot, I can live with that.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:09:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

There's something

in what you say Royce, I am at work now and I don't have that much time to unpack it. My boss is nice but he ain't that nice.

I do favor, though, going back to revisit affirmative action along economic lines and I have felt that way for quite sometime.

But do be careful here. I do take other blacks to task in speaking for all "black people." I will NOT allow you to do the same. And some of the s**t is so broad based as to be out and out racist, quite frankly.

Later.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:25:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You just go on and on and on about YOURSELF!

The cartoon isn't about affirmative action and your life experiences.

You've written far too much about yourself and how you think you've been wronged.

SO WHAT?!

Why is your story and what you think about the cartoon important enough to negate the outrage of African Americans over Obama being depicted as a monkey?

Like many white men, you always have to make every issue about you. Why can't you just shut the fuck up and listen to your African American brothers and sisters? Why can't you accept the fact that many of them have an issue with this?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:49:35 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I wish it were possible for people to discuss any sensitive topic without resorting to name calling, or throwing out the inevitable demand that someone you disagree with "shut the fuck up."

Just because this sort of behavior is rampant in the general culture now, why must it be allowed to exist on this site?

By the way, there are people of color who aren't gung ho about many aspects of affirmative action nowadays.  I fear if they showed up here for one of those discussions about race which Pam is always calling for, they'd be chased off soon enough by this sort of bully-boy nonsense.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 18:05:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Boo fucking hoo.

I grew up poor too. You don't have exclusive rights here.

Where you're screwing up, ROYCE, is in looking at racism as a "Me Versus Them" issue. And until you look at the entire picture without that line drawn down the middle of your viewpoints, you are never going to fully comprehend why what you wrote is so offensive and why your thoughts are not going to be taken at face value.

Look inside, think it over, and maybe THEN you can figure out how to stop the hate within yourself. It HAS to start with YOU personally- and frankly, you don't sound capable of doing it.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:48:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You know Royce...

...to a certain extent, I agree with you.

1.  Political figures are fair game for derision.  Just about anyone is as long as slander and libel don't come into the picture (and even what constitutes those is up for debate).

2.  America does seem to be in a choke-hold when it comes to race discussions.  What to say when to whom seems to trip a lot of people up.  It's worth discussing.

However, I can't agree that the cartoon was not intended to be aimed at Obama nor that it was not racist.  It very clearly is.  Either that or it suffered from the worst luck in chosen subject matter, history, and placement that I have ever seen.  Even if it was Pelosi and others who wrote the bill, it only takes surfing over to the Huffington Post to realize that everyone aligns the bill with Obama's presidency and by extension Obama himself.

I am willing to grant the artist at least the benefit of the doubt that it COULD be taken as a very high-minded critique of a bill that not everyone is happy about (see my comment above).  I almost appreciate it...IF (a very big if) it had not been written in a country where EVERYONE knows or should know that we have a history of comparing black people to monkeys and that, given this history, there was very little else that could be interpreted from the cartoon by the people of this country.  The New York Post is being disingenuous by feigning shock that anyone would take offense.

Concerning the assassination implication...wasn't there a film that not only implied the assassination of President Bush but enacted it in great detail?  Was there such an outcry on this site about that?

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

---

by: popsiclestand @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 23:54:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It was a cartoon...

This is obviously a touchy subject...in fact, these days everything racial seems far more CHARGED since Obama was elected.  Shrug...not being one who is politically correct, being one who deliberately writes in a fashion to raise ones ire, I hate our PC nation...hard to honestly discuss almost anything dealing with race, religion, sexual orientation or politics if you have to remain politically correct.  

I think Roland Martin has become hypersensitive where Barack and Michelle OBama are concerned, and nothing is going to satisfy him...see his opinion piece on White House Press Office staff, and his belief that there is a lack of, and inadequate enough number of blacks on the so called A Team...everything to him seems to be TINGED with racial inequity aimed at Obama, or at the Black Community...it is getting old...sorry, but as one who has SACRIFICED A LOT, as one who has missed out on a lot of opportunity in the name of Affirmative Action, I find myself wanting to know (it's been about 36 years now of my 53 years on this earth) when the Black Community is going to feel WE WHITEYS have done enough.  No disrespect meant, but give me a break...I had NOTHING to do with any of it, just want to live my life and HAVE AND EQUAL CHANCE AT THE BRASS RING.  I once supported Affirmative Action, but believe we as a nation have come to what should be THE END OF THE LINE for a program that now visits reverse racism on people that have done nothing to deserve it...why should I be disadvantaged when applying for college because of the color of my skin?

Maybe some of us are becoming jaded what with Illegal Aliens, La Raza and MALDEF constantly wanting to play the race card, wrongfully accusing us of being bigots because we oppose Amnesty for criminals...who knows, or maybe with 5 plus million Legal Americans out of work, we are correct in being tired of being told we should show more compassion for the illegal aliens who are working while we are not. Yet again it is like being told its NOT OUR TURN, that we owe it to others to give THEM THEIR CHANCE even if it means losing ours.

Round about way to make a point here, but think our nation is running the risk of becoming far more fractured than we have ever been, and MAYBE, just maybe Al Sharpton and Roland Martin ACTUALLY ARE over reacting to what was nothing more than a political cartoon.  We have a serious Illegal Alien problem that is dividing the nation, we have our first Black President, and a Black Community that seems bent on claiming him as ALL THEIR OWN, and over 5 million Americans out of work as 75 Million Baby Boomers watch Wall Street burn and with it, their life savings and retirements.  That is a WICKED BREW, and I would suggest we all might be better served finding ways to get along in these very troubling times when our nation has FAR BIGGER PROBLEMS FACING IT than a poorly crafted Political Cartoon.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:23:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I can understand your frustration...

...and agree that there are more important things to worry about than a racist cartoon.

I'm not sure what many of your problems with American institutions have to do with whether a cartoon is racist or not (which is what this post is about).  Should people grow thicker skin?  Sure.  As a black woman, I have.  I find bigots to be pitiful and their behavior a strange echo from an earlier time, but that doesn't mean people won't/shouldn't get offended when it's thrown in their faces.

I don't believe in making a lot of noise about a lot of stuff...particularly when their are more important things to do.

I would like to address some of your issues, though they are a bit off-topic.

1.  You cannot deny that race plays a factor in many areas of American life.  Affirmative Action, for better or for worse, was designed to alleviate such blatant inequalities by blindly forcing institutions to look past race.  At the time it was established, I think it worked.  Does it need to be revisited now?  Definitely.  There was a time and still is a time when a black person would get turned down for a job because they were black even if they were more than qualified.  By forcing certain quotas, you eliminate that bias in a way.  It's a certain kind of solution to a difficult problem, but definitely not the only one.  My question would be is that bias still present in our society in the manner that it was when Affirmative Action was established.

2.  You bring up illegal aliens, but you fail to throw some of the blame on the companies that employ them and the policies that allow them to be employed with impunity.  If you want to go pick strawberries in the blazing heat for pennies a day, feel free, I'm sure corporations would welcome that cheap labor.  Which is the whole reason they employ illegals in the first place -- Americans just cost too dang much.  I don't feel contempt for the migrant worker looking to support his family by working a job that is advertised to him, legal or no.  The only solution to that problem is policy and changing the standards for the employers providing the work.

Anyway, those are subjects for other threads.  For the record, I do not think that you are a racist, but someone understandably frustrated with PC policy in the US.  Back to the subject at hand, to create such a cartoon in a country such as ours cannot shake the implication of racism.  And anyone who would let a cartoon like that go to press with ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge of how it would be received is either an idiot not worthy of his/her job or a racist.  Either way, they deserve the backlash this has gotten.  And that backlash is NOT curtailing anyone's right to continually print however many racist cartoons that they want.  Cause this is America.  And that's why it's awesome.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

---

by: popsiclestand @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:46:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah

and it has also been argued that the left often compared Bush to a chimp also, to be fair. Personally, I think the chimps should be highly insulted by the comparison. But it's a fair criticism, just as the assassination implication is.

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:58:13 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Firstly

do you disagree with the idea that the stimulus bill is associated with Obama? That he pushed hard to get it passed? That people see the bill as his? When people think of the stimulus bill, do they think, oh, it is not Obama's, it is Pelosi's, or it is Reid's, or it is Specter's?

Secondly, you do not see how associating someone of African descent with a monkey is racist?

You say people need to get a bit thicker skin. Well OK. Same goes for you. I'll call you a racist. Freedom of speech and all that. Grow a thicker skin.  

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:15:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Call me what you may...

I have been called far worse things than bigot by my first wife, so knock yourself out.

Obama is a politician...over the decades, he is not the first nor will he be the last politician to be compared to a monkey or a chimp.  Curious here...do we as Americans want to remember Obama as the FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT, or instead remember him as the 44th President of the United States of America?  I would postulate that true equality would be found in remembering him as our 44th President, seeing him as we have seen the 43 presidents that came before him.  If that is how we see him, as the 44th President, then he is fair game for political cartoonists, editoralists, and yes bloggers.

You might disagree, but think the likes of Roland Martin and Al Sharpton do a disservice to Obama the man, and President Obama is attempting to play the race card...it keeps Obama locked in the box of being America's First Black President instead of being just the President of the United States of America.  Political Correctnees in my opinion is ruining this nation, and keeping diverse groups from having serious discussions about a lot of subjects.

You want to call me racist, by all means please do, as that at least gives me a TRUE AND ACCURATE PICTURE of just where I stand with you, rather than some candy coated politically correct false vision of my standing in your eyes.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:31:19 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh woe is me

Oh woe is me, the white man who toils in horrors of politically correct America. I am a person of ability and reason and all the liberals and colored people want to strip away my rights! Woe is me! Woe is me! Affirmative action took away my opportunity to become educated and rich!

(sarcasm)

There are people worst than racists Mr. Penstinger and I think you qualify for that position.

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:20:09 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Practice Your Sarcasm

Rich is relative, and missed opportunity is not always ABOUT MONEY.  Let me quess, you don't think there is such a thing as poor or disenfranchised WHITE PEOPLE?  We were all born with silver spoons up our collective arses, and spent our youth growing up in a pretty White House in Pleasantville US of A?  You think no poor white people, perhaps unfairly, had to pay the price, are paying the price for Affirmative Action?  Suppose next you would like to convince me that povertyis a uniguely Black Experience? (yes, being sarcastic)

Your post is EXACTLY why we as Americans cannot actually sit down and talk about race...you don't want to hear that there ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY including this one, and not EVERY WHITE PERSON IS EVIL, and not every white person should have had to pay the price to implement Affirmative Action.  Maybe when some in the Black Community want to hear some of our truths, they might find a more receptive audience for their own truths...life and real communicationis always a two way street.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:30:19 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Penstinger, The Failed Mind Reader

"Let me quess, you don't think there is such a thing as poor or disenfranchised WHITE PEOPLE?"

You guessed wrong. I hold the belief that all in all, unless external forces destroys a group's chance to succeed, the group's success or failure depends on its culture. I believe American blacks and white southerners/appalachians are kin in culture as evident by blacks taking on the culture they were raised in during slavery.

Didn't see that coming did you?

You need to seriously brush up on your mind reading skills.

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:45:11 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Black man, monkey, animal

Jump high, run fast, big c**k, stupid, dumb, cannot control himself.

That is the problem with this cartoon.

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:46:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Also,

the cops are white.

So, white cops shooting a monkey, associated with the man of African descent.  

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:49:36 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh THAT'S Why The Republican Base Race Baits!

Thanks for clearing that up. Now that I know the "other side" of this story = decreased prosperity for poor whites, I feel tres smarter already. Just bear in mind, not even the GOP was using this lame rhetoric during the election campaigns, and it would have fit in nicely with the Bill Ayers terrorist connection and fears of a Muslim winning the presidential race.

---

by: Decaf @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:09:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Again,

do you agree that historically, all over the world, people of African descent have been compared to monkeys, animals. With the implication that while they are physically strong(er), and  the males have big c**ks, they are also mentally stupid.

Do you agree with that contention? Yes or no.

Secondly, do you agree that the stimulus bill is seen as pretty much belonging to Obama? That people when they think of the bill, they associate it mostly with him, not Pelosi, not Reid, not Specter, not Snowe.

2 simple questions. Yes or no.

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by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:42:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

rfloh

The man can't see that hes part of the problem. People like him cry, saying we can't have a conversation on race because of big bad political correctness. In addition to decrying the tribulations of political correctness, he goes on to insult people, requiring that to have a "intelligent discourse", we must have their conservative (sometimes ultra-conservative) beliefs.

And worse. They pretend to act like something isn't racist when something is. Its this that flings the issue into the fire.

We will never, ever, ever, ever, have an intelligent conversation on race if we choose to talk from the corner of either someone like Jesse Jackson or someone like Rush Limbaugh.  

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by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:54:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You are the one trotting out stereotypes

I do not buy into stereotypes, but your question intones that you do. Maybe that is the problem...I am not tied up in the past, do not let it define me or my views.  For all intents, I am a HILLBILLY with all the history that entails and to a certain degree a victim of the prejudices associated with that reality. Does that mean I should own it, or define myself based on those old prejudices, those old jokes.  

"Daddy, if I get a divorce is she still my sister?"

People have assumed I am dumb or slow because I have a bit of a SOUTHERN DRAWL. That's ON THEM, not me. I know all the OLD PREJUDICES that you have dragged up, just don't buy into them, and because I do not buy into them, they DO NOT WEIGH into my perceptions of life or cartoons.  As I have stated before, I have seen other POLITICAL CARTOONS that portray the BUFFOONS in Washington as chimps monkeys, even horses asses.  When I saw the cartoon and its caption I did not see it as aimed at Obama. You asked a question wanting a black or white, yes or no answer...sorry, but like life there are lots of shades of gray, and the question is not a yes or no one.

Do I see the STimulus Bill as Obama's.  NO with capital letters.  This Stimulus Bill (for those that read it)has special interest WRITTEN ALL OVER IT.  E Verify stripped out can be credited to the National Chamber of Commerce and the Association of General Contractors to name two organizations with a heavy lobbying influence on the Hill. The watering down of the Buy American language...hello, that was one of the big grips the president of Caterpillar had with the bill.  Any one that thinks this is Obama's Stimulus are naive, or are Republicans wanting to tag him with it in the hopes he and the Stimulus will fail.  On a personal note, betting the stimulus will fail...too little, too late, and not enough of the RIGHT STUFF going to the right groups of people.  AGain, not a straight YES OR NO, black or white question.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:15:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Whatever Penstinger writes isn't worth reading.

He is a waste of time.

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:07:25 AM CST

[ Parent ]

More issues

than National Geographic.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:09:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"People have assumed I am dumb or slow because I have a bit of a SOUTHERN DRAWL."

I've never heard your voice and I am certain that you are ignorant. I won't assume that you are not capable of learning. But, you're certainly not trying very hard to educate yourself. You're being dismissive and arrogant.

Who the fuck cares whether or not you "buy into" what you call "old prejudices" when there are people of color who are still suffering from racism?

When I saw the cartoon and its caption I did not see it as aimed at Obama.

Again, this isn't about you. It is about African Americans being compared to apes for the past 300+ years.

An intelligent person would listen to those who are offended and say, "Hum, thanks for your point of view. You taught me something."

Instead, you want to defend your point of view -- as a white man who is part of a group that has not been compared to apes for hundreds of years. That's just STUPID!  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:13:09 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Louise

Sorry Louise, but you know what...when you are in the same sinking boat growing up as someone else is, and they get thrown a life preserver because they are black, and you don't, it IS ABOUT YOU VERSE THEM after awhile.  Everyone wants to talk about HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE...when you are one of the ones who over and over has PAID THE PRICE, that is your perspective your history, but you see...the Black Community does not want to hear the voice from that segment of the White Community because they have LUMPED ALL OF US TOGETHER. Sorry, I have not been one of those WHITEYS who has lived a life of privilege. If someone else who is in the EXACT SAME BOAT as you gets given a chance to go to college, and you do not, are you going to tell me your not going to be PISSED OFF...especially when it was not a MERIT SCHOLARSHIP, but one given because the person was a minority.  Sorry, but for me, reality and history is WHAT I HAVE LIVED, and I would be a lot less pissed off  with this whole thing if the Black Community at least ACKNOWLEGED my reality,

That's the problem with Affirmative Action from my perspective...it is not like those at the top of the ladder created MORE OPPORTUNITY to make Affirmative Action a success story.  No, they simply took a portion of the LIMITED NUMBER of chances available for poor folk and set them over into a new basket reserved for minorities.  Now there was a recipe for problems down the road.

Simply stated, the few chances we had to get out of our own dark box suddenly got diminished.  We accepted it, it was a part of the price that needed to be paid to move on...problem is, (from my own perspective) I never thought my entire adult life would be spent paying a price that is unfair for me to have to pay...BUT YOU AND OTHERS expect ME not to be BITTER?  Even worse, I am told to SHUT THE FUCK UP (unspoken) TAKE IT LIKE A MAN.  Blacks want to see White World, Black World and that is understandable on some level.  Problem is, there are more than two realities, and like it or not, the affluent Whites have not paid for Affirmative Action, those of us closer to the bottom of the economic ladder have...trust me, an Affirmative Action free pass into college never would have kept the likes of a George Bush or John Kerry from getting into Princeton.

Back in the early 70's I was willing to buy into Affirmative Action, filled in my job applications, and accepted it when told by the interviewer (who in several instances I knew as I lived in Rural America)they had to hire minorities.  Back then, a UNION JOB was the ticket out of poverty...problem was, those tickets were reserved and I had the wrong color skin. Some 35 years later...sorry, but the train needs to come into the station as I and other like me are tired of footing the bill.

By the way...another reality check. Like it or not, no one can ever MAKE UP FOR PAST ABUSES...ask any survivor. Problem is, the Black Community things those past abuses can in some way be made whole...they can't be, and like it or not, it is wrong when the Black Community thinks that people like me OWE IT TO THEM TO TRY.  Don't tell me I am clueless, as I am an Abuse Survivor, and I have the physical, mental and emotional scars to prove.  I don't want your pity, life is what life is, but don't tell me I need to stop looking at this situation from my own perspective, need to take a larger world view of it...tell Nancy Pelosi to do that, tell Senator Reed to do that, tell Obama and Holder to do that, but don't even DARE ASK ME TO DO THAT...I gave already, even when I could not afford to, and for this MAN (notice I left out the word WHITE)I am not giving any more, the train has come into the station and that is a reality that many men and women in my situation are reaching.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:44:24 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Dude, no one ever "threw me" a life preserver

nor did I ever ask for one.

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:03:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You're not clueless

you're a few dacades late for some serious therapy. And you bore me.  

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:04:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Decades...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:05:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Again...

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU!

The kind of racism this article is about doesn't impact you.

Yet, you've written paragraph after parargraph about YOU.

That's not going to solve the problem of racism in America. It is worse than the cowardice that Eric Holder spoke about.

It is NARCISSISM.

You can't simply listen to what African Americans are telling you and accept that fact that this cartoon is offensive to THEM.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:36:35 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks Fritz

and here I am  ready to go outta my to defend a couple of Royce's points. But all black people think the same and benefit the same as far as he is concerned.

Royce gives hillbillies a bad name. Guess Royce never got clued in on the "Rednecks for Obama" t-shirts.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:42:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It isn't that his points aren't worthy of debate

They just don't apply to the controversy about this cartoon.

His argument is that since HE doesn't find it offensive Al Sharpton and millions of others who do are wrong.

Then he plays the old "affirmative action victimizes white people" card.

I'd love to debate affirmative action -- which I believe is a poor substitute for real economic reparations. But, that's not the issue at hand. This isn't about the poor victimized white man. It is about a cartoon that depicts Obama as a monkey.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:59:13 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah,

he's carting out each and every issue he has against "blacks" as if all black people think the same over the damn cartoon. I do agree with Sharpton in this case. But not in all cases, nor have I ever thought that Sharpton spoke for me.

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:10:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You ARE FUNNY, will give you that.

"I'd love to debate affirmative action -- which I believe is a poor substitute for real economic reparations. But, that's not the issue at hand. This isn't about the poor victimized white man. It is about a cartoon that depicts Obama as a monkey."

1. YOU and OTHERS think the cartoon depicts Obama as a monkey.  Others such as myself do not think it depicts him as a Monkey.  You, and other close minded individuals think YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DICTATE TO PEOPLE LIKE ME WHAT THE CARTOON DEPICTS...WRONG.  In fact, a survey I saw today saw a full 50 percent of the people in the poll DID NOT think the cartoon depicted Obama.  Further, that same 50 percent felt the apology issued by the Post WAS MORE THAN ADEQUATE, and a further eight percent did not even feel an apology WAS DUE.  But Al Sharpton still wants to beat his RACISM DRUM and threaten a widening boycott and more protests nation wide (Over a political cartoon) What is next, is he going to issue some Obama FATWAH's, call for JIHAD on the Post?  Seriously, it is scary how close this situation resembles the overeaction in the Middle East over the Allah cartoons that appeared in Danish papers.

2.  As to your desire to have a talk on Economic Reparations...give us a break...that tired horse HAS BEEN BEAT TO DEATH now for how many decades?  Is this where you are going to trot out the long term legacy effects of Slavery? Sure you will disagree, but Affirmative Action was a form or Reparations, and now that its time has run its course you want a new train built?  You are right, I do not agree with the whole Reparations concept, a modern day recalculation of 40 acres and a mule...to put it all into perspective, during the campaign circus it was pointed out that Dick Cheney and Barack Obama are related...should Dick Cheney get a mule?

"His argument is that since HE doesn't find it offensive Al Sharpton and millions of others who do are wrong."

No, this was NOT my arguement...Al Sharpton (and Roland Martin) perhaps because they are so hypersensitive saw the cartoon in one light, and took offense to it, but that does not make them right, nor make the cartoon offensive.  This cartoon is just like everything else right now when it comes to America and politics....opinion splits down the middle, and just goes to show you that we TRULY ARE A DIVIDED NATION.  I do not like censorship, not interested in giving any one including Al Sharpton the right to decide what IS, or IS NOT offensive.  

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 20:39:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Careful

are you responding to Fritz orto me? Because this is a response to me, technically, and your other issues we could discuss offline!  

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 20:45:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Wrong Again Fritz

I get the fact that the cartoon is OFFENSIVE to some, or even ALL of the Black Community.  The fact that it offends them does not A) make the cartoon offensive, or B) mean that the Post should not have let it go to print.  We have enough censorship in this nation already, and too many examples of all kinds of special interest groups taking offense to anything and everything that appears in print. I have not said you or any one else is not entitled to your opinions and feelings on this cartoon, but several here have told me I am NOT ENTITLED to mine, that what I think does not count, as I am THE WRONG COLOR when it comes to having my opinion count.  GO BACK AND READ some of the responses.

This is turning into a pissing contest, and everyone wants to paint me out as a narcissustic bigot and troll here on the site, wants to put me in a basket with Sarah Palin and the radical right wing of the Republican Party. I don't see the cartoon as racist, nor do I see it as pointed at OBama...but then I also do not see the Stimulus AS HIS STIMULUS BILL...he signed it, he had input in it, but he did not write it.

I think Affirmative Action has out lived its usefulness and needs to be eliminated or drastically changed so that is awards people oppotunity based on their financial plight which I feel is a far fairer measure than any thers including color.

I've at least TRIED to have a discussion here, tried to show that there is more than one perspective and opinion on the cartoon and some other larger issues including Eric Holder's challenge (if you want to call it that) to have the discussion...discussion entails ALL SIDES getting to air their grievances and opinions...discussion does not entail one side doing all the talking and accusing while the other side does all the listening.

Angry...YEPPERS, I am...never denied it, never would. Are some of my points valid though?  Who knows, no one wants to realistically discuss them, my opinions do not count, I am self absorbed and incapable of looking at the BROADER PICTURE.  WELL EXCUSE ME...after 35 years, I am TIRED OF LOOKING AT THE BROADER PICTURE, and if you think I am alone in this, you are wrong.  That said, at least I am still trying to have discussion...looking at this thread I find myself wondering why I even bother trying.  Tell me who the selfish one is...me, or those that are only willing to see the world from their own perspective...you see, many people who have posted here are GUILTY of the very thing they are accusing me of...having a closed mind, only seeing the issues from their perspective.

You and everyone else have a great life, I am bowing out of this ONE WAY STREEET discussion.

Keep the spirit of a child alive in your heart, and you can still spy the shadow of a unicorn when walking in the woods.

---

by: Royce Penstinger @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:18:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"Wrong Again Fritz"

Why is this about anyone being wrong or right for you?

The fact that it offends them does not A) make the cartoon offensive, or B) mean that the Post should not have let it go to print.

Huh? What the flying fuck does that mean? If people are offended by the cartoon, it IS offensive.

It may not be offensive to YOU. But, it is offensive to millions of people.

Why do you think you get to determine whether or not the cartoon is labeled as offensive?

Oh, yeah. You're white and the opinion of one white, ignorant redneck outweighs the opinions of millions of African Americans.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"You're white and the opinion of one white, ignorant redneck"

LOL. Ok, I HAVE to go here. Forgive me.

Careful, Fritz. To paraphrase a certain Seattle-based sex columnist, "I've been held down by a few rednecks in my time."

Royce gives rednecks a bad name.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:47:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Dude you are

entitled to your opinion. I agree with you on the free speech issue and even on points A and B. But to protest about the content of the speech is equally a free speech issue. And given the historical implications of depicting black people as monkeys and the dehumanizing aspect of that, yes, the opinions of black people should have more weight (though the Irish were depicted similarily. But Nancy Pelosi is not of Irish nor Sicilian descent, I believe).

The one way street here seems to be your way.

And the assanination implication is downright criminal (or should be.

Have a good day, sir.

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:33:11 AM CST

[ Parent ]

that's "assassination"

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:34:16 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You are in the same boat as Sarah Palin

because like Palin, you appear understand what free speech means.

You have a right to say whatever you want. People have a right to disagree, even vehemently, with what you say. That is free speech. Your right to say what you want is not anymore valuable than the rights of others to say what they want. You do not get to say what you want, and then only have people agree with you, and say how smart and special you are, while the people who disagree with you have to shut up. That is not free speech.

You want to say something on a public forum? Them expect people to disagree with you and argue with you. Grow a thicker skin.

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 20:25:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Dadgum I found it!

http://images.search.yahoo.com...

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:48:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Looked through this

there's some pretty racist stuff that comes up here!

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:50:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, your "Southern Drawl"

is absolutely the reason people here are not taking you and your views seriously.

Are you TALKING WHILE YOU TYPE?

Holy fuck, the trolls get dumber every goddamned day around here.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:08:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't think Royce is a troll

Last fall, he posted several diaries which fit in here at PHB.  But I do agree that he seems to have a lot of issues (or very strong feelings about certain topics, if you prefer.)

On the whole, I disagree with him (and also with his recent posts at his blog.)  But I think he is sincere, and is not trying to rile us up just for the sake of riling us up.

If you want allies, you have to be an ally.

---

by: dale @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:12:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Okay

Then I apologize for the "troll" statement, Royce, and thank you, dale, for the clarification. And I'll tone it down.

Like Fritz, I am a white person who has spent alot of time trying to get through to my own family and others about racism. And like Royce, I also grew up extremely poor- had I not worked my ass off all through high school for local scholarships and gotten Pell grants, I never would have been able to attend college. So his playing the "oh I was so poor and Affirmative Action hurt MEEEEEEE!" card was very triggering.


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:29:24 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Then again

Google this clown and he appears to be an incredibly pretentious, self-important, celeb wanna-be/hanger on/name dropping ass.

YAWN.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:30:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It is nice that you don't view things via stereotypes

In the real world, that is not how things work. The stereotypes exists. The stereotypes that men of African descent are animalistic, monkeys, stupid, still exists. Just because you don't have those stereotypes doesn't mean that others don't.

Look at how freaking long it took for African American coaches in the NFL to be considered a routine thing. How long for African American quarterbacks to be considered a routine thing, not worthy of much comment.

You are viewing this comic from your own personal standpoint. You want to discard all context.

---

by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 20:17:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

and black coaches

in college football are still a novelty.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 20:23:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"...the likes of Roland Martin and Al Sharpton..."

WTF!

What do you mean by "the likes of Roland Martin and Al Sharpton"?

Besides being men, the only thing the two have in common are...what?

- Not the same age.
- Not from the same part of the country.
- Not in the same profession.
- Not of the same faith.

What's left?

Hum. Let me think. Could it be that they're both BLACK?


When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:21:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Excuses Much?

Well, somebody around here is quite sure of himself. Nobody is "fair game" for an undeserved attack on the basis of their profession or any other attribute. Half the problem is that we suck the teat of entitlement when it comes to demeaning public figures. And if you need a history lesson to explain the risks of potentially comparing African Americans to animals, look back much further than the days of Bonzo. Show me a white man traumatized by the inference of that comparison and you might have a point. Otherwise Reagan, Bush and anyone else of their circle is irrelevant to this dialogue. And what makes it okay to revel in the idea of another living creature being gunned down, anyway? Even without the racial implications, that's not exactly a healthy way to express displeasure with political policies. Nor is it acceptable because it may parody the death of a real chimp who made headlines. As for Eric Holder, at least a prominent government official is willing to cut the bullshit and call out America for its complacency. His one sentence on the matter of race was more fulfilling than Obama's entire speech about it last year. Where Obama simply hoped we'd forget Jeremiah Wright's furor, Holder gave voice to the real disconnect amongst us. And you're in a snit because apparently there was nothing more to obtain from him than "name calling." I guess being called a coward is worse than being likened to a slaughtered animal these days.

---

by: Decaf @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:54:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

With 5,000,000 unemployed

and crime rates rising, the cartoon and "Americans are cowards" from the Attorney General could fuse a dangerous place where we do not want to go, especially facing a long depression.  President Obama needs to speak out and calm people down. Nancy Pelosi and Congress wrote the bill.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 13:13:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

off topic but Eric Cantor has been on my LAST NERVE for days

i had to laugh as Aerospace B*tch slapped him over his using their song. So here's an image I made
  http://img.villagephotos.com/p...

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 23:36:12 PM CST

Naughty Aerosmith

I always laugh when ANYONE uses their music without BEING AWARE of the lyrical content (football games, political ads)

I was (is) a HUGE HUGE fan of their music 1973-1979 as a young bassist, but unlike the general public, I was able to read the lyrics since I had the songbooks.   Most human ears cannot discern what the hell Steven Tyler is singing half of the time....and it don't matter with rock & roll anywayz.  

"Back in the Saddle", "Lick and a Promise", "Walk This Way" are deliciously slutty-man stuff.....WITH Bad-Assed Bass Lines from Tom Hamilton.    

Decades more of abuse? - OR - Stonewall.  Nationwide.  NOW!

---

by: John Bisceglia @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:30:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

YMCA anyone? :)

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:18:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

over at Breibart TV site they had that RNC video

I commented that House Democrats countered with sweet baby James'
STEAMROLLER

buh hahahaha

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:18:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You forgot

Love In An Elevator.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:04:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I thought calling the president "Chimpy" was going too far

Oh wait, that was Bush, so it's all right then.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:01:07 AM CST

I KNOW THIS IS WRONG AND I JUST CAN'T HELP IT

I've worked all my life to get our country beyond the idea that white men are the gold standard and to realize that all people are equally valuable and worthy of respect, dignity, and equal rights.

I expected to be thrilled when the first black person was elected president and I'm not. When I worked on Jesse Jackson's campaign, and supported Al Sharpton in 2004, I was excited about the prospect.

But, I look at these attacks on Obama, and the best I can muster is a (perhaps slightly sad) yawn.

I am no longer interested in movies that would have interested me in the past. Tonight, "A Soldiers Story" - about racism in the armed forces during WWII - was on TCM. I turned it off after 5 minutes. I've noticed that movies about racism and triumph over it no longer interest me, or to put it more accurately, I just can't stand to watch them.

The reason is that President Obama gives lip service to equal rights, and despite what he says, he does things that make it obvious that equal rights for all people is clearly not a core value for him.

NOW, when I see things like those detailed in this article, I just don't care. I've basically decided that since Obama doesn't support equal rights for all people, Obama deserves what he's getting and that my duty is to work for equal rights for those who don't have them. So, I keep my mouth shut. I won't promote the stuff, but when someone emails it to me, I thank them instead of telling them to stop.

ALL of my enthusiasm for activism and political involvement are gone. I certainly wouldn't do anything to sabotage Obama's program, but I have no interest in defending him or advancing his agenda to friends and neighbors.

I'm writing about this because I've noticed others in my world who seem to be in the same place.

I don't like being here and I don't like others being here with me, but I just don't have any energy to spend on combating racism or defending Obama from racist attacks.

I'm motivated to work on civil rights for gays because gays don't have civil rights, but, at this point, if David Duke or that idiot at the Air Force Academy make racist attacks on Obama, I no longer see it as my concern and have no interest in speaking up or opposing them.

I'm sure that this comment will inspire some negative responses, so I you must, let me have it. I'll just yawn and move on to the next item.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

---

by: oldbrit @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:32:06 AM CST

Oldbrit

I yawn at you. You seem tired. How about you just roll over then? You people think you're so special for some reason. Its your egos that are hurting you people.

Get a life.

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:11:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'd also like to add

that I have nothing against most white people just as I have nothing against most other people of other colors. While I believe in the existence of white privilege (institutional racism), I also believe people of color also have racial obligations they must fulfill and I believe black Americans, sadly, collectively have fallen short of that task.

But, in giving credence to a cartoon that aims to dehumanize an entire race of human beings Oldbrit proves herself (himself?) to be another cowardly racist. The racist who isn't a racist. The racist whos "the victim of a political correct society". The misunderstood racist. The racist who likes to create nastiness and division, manipulating words and images like the "artist" of that cartoon and when someone calls them what they are, they snicker "racist? Me? Oh, you're just sensitive! PC police!"

Well those days are coming to an end and Oldbrit has simply moved on to stop pretending to being for racial civil rights. Surprise.

Wheres that tiniest violin picture?

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:25:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"While I believe in the existence of white privilege..."

One of the things that pisses me off is when white people use the tired old argument that affirmative action is some kind of comparative injustice to white privilege.

Please! A few thousand African Americans get into public universities and are hired by government agencies and contractors and that's supposed to offset hundreds of years of oppression? What about the hundreds of thousands of African Americans who are packed into our prisons? Is that the result of affirmative action? An African American is 10 times more likely to go to prison for a drug crime than a white person who commits the same offense -- no exaggeration.

I know that white privilege exists because I've experienced the benefits. We won't be able to have an honest conversation about race until more white people are willing to admit this and REJECT IT!

If I'm in a store or restaurant and the person of color in front of me in line is ignored in favor of me, I not only insist that the other person go next, I ask for the manager and complain about it. If I witness discrimination, I treat it as if it is my problem -- because it is!

This is why I'm so hard on many of the ignorant white people who comment here. Most African Americans are more tactful than I am. But, I don't see any reason to take it easy on these morons. I had to scream and yell and rant and rave to put an end to the racism in my own family. I've heard all of these arguments far to many times.

It can get tiresome. But, I'm not giving up.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:23:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Right there with ya, hon.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:06:19 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That''s my point, Fritz

I don't know how what I wrote got to be an attack on affirmative action or an argument for white privilege.

I'm 58 and I've worked on these issues since high school.

What is going on in my head at the moment is real. Clearly, it would have been easier to keep my mouth shut than to talk about this and get attacked.

As for Obama, many here have expressed delight at the bad things that happen to the fundies, because they deserve it. Well, what's going on for me is this: The man's the President of the United States. He has the power to advance equal rights for all people and instead takes actions that damage that cause, so, when he gets attacked, it seems more like "what goes around, comes around." than anything I should worry about.

It doesn't make me happy to be in this state, but I am.

Please note that I didn't say I like any of the attacks on Obama. The cartoon is horrid, but at the moment, I have no motivation to do anything about it. Since, high school, I've been motivated to take action on these things, had to do it because I was being compelled by something inside me that made me feel I had not choice, but to do it. At the moment, all of that is gone. That's my reality for the moment.

Maybe I am a closet racist and have just come out. I don't know. But, being tear-gassed, arrested, and receiving death-threats over the years in my activism for equal rights for blacks and others, don't seem like the actions of someone who is hiding their racism.

None of this makes me happy, but it's where I am right now. Maybe I just need a break from all of it for a while.

I do know the exact point when this started. It was when Obama sent Donny McClurkin to South Carolina. So, I think it might be about my disappointment with Obama more than anything else. In my fantasies of electing the first woman, or black, or whatever minority, was supposed to be a watershed event because that person would most surely be for equal rights for all people. It has been disillusioning to me to discover that Obama's just one more politician who probably couldn't have gotten elected if he stood up for equal rights for all people as I have in the past.

Liz

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

---

by: oldbrit @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:32:35 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well said

oldbrit.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:36:16 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Let me add this

as a black gay man from Illinois. I have noted this previously about Obama.

By 2004, of course, Obama had effectively switched from supporting same-sex marriage to civil unions. Even then he cited strategic positioning (or some phrase like that) due to the homophobia in the black and Catholic communities. But even in 2004 he spoke out very forcefully and specifically about an all-inclusive ENDA that included transgenders.

You didn't hear any of that 2008. Instead you got the Donnie McClurkin tour. Obama embraced the most homophobic elements in the black community in order to wrest the black vote away from Hillary Clinton in the primaries.

Particularly in the run up to the general election, yes, he said that he was opposed to Proposition 8, but he didn't say that too loud. He certainly did say, "I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman because I am a Christian." That's a very different position from the one he took in 2004. I remember in the debate against Alan Keyes then, he chided Alan Keyes for wearing his religion on his sleeve.

As I said, many folks in "bellweather states" probably knew little or nothing about the Proposition 8. But they certainly heard Obama say that, "Marriage is between a man and a woman." And I am talking about folks in Indiana, Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida.

I agree with oldbrit in noting the inconsistency of Obama's position. And it distresses me that some black and Latino LGBTs seem to speak out against racial oppression at the drop of a hat but then shrug their shoulders at the oppression perpetuated in their own communities.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:00:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Oldbrit can have whatever opinion of Obama she'd like. Its not that that brothers me

Its thinking just because we've elected a black leader who fails morally on a particular issue means that you should stop fighting against racial injustice or (silently) condone racial bigotry.

And then decide that anyone who disagrees with her isn't worth taking into consideration.  

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 19:13:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, she said that maybe she needed a break

from it all.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that she really feels that way if she's been fighting since the 60's. Still, the way she stated it is disappointing.

But...I am equally as disappointed that Barack Obama is complicit to a degree in my oppression as a black gay man.

I support Obama. But to hear my cousin say with so much pride that, "He's my President," eats at me. Because my cousin holds views that directly implicates him in my oppression. And he can look to Barack Obama as a source of support.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 20:05:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hey Kevinchi

I guess I'm done with Oldbrit. I've been running into too many white people (no offense to other whites) who make a show and dance farewell show to supporting blacks and racial minority rights. I wish they'd all just shut up and join their local KKK chapter so I'll never have to hear their pseudo outrage/disappointment ever again.

And Kevin, I think you have an opportunity to make shit into lemonade here. All black lgbt people do. Obama has numerous quotes supporting a fight against black homophobia. He has a page devoted to supporting lgbt rights in his civil rights agenda. No other particular minoority is given such attention on whitehouse.gov. I'm not saying Obama doesn't fail on his opinion on marriage but good god, many black people aren't even five steps close to Obama's level of support/tolerance for lgbt people. We have an opportunity to show blacks, especially black men, that you can care about the welfare of lgbt people and not be a closet homosexual or whatever.

You can either sit around and cry and act. Whites don't treat people of their race the same. They choose to engage with white homophobes. They choose to engage with their families and create groups in their hometowns even when their hometowns aren't gay friendly. They don't say "I choose not to engage with them because we're both white and by being homophobic, they betray me!" But thats what too many openly lgbt black people do.  

---

by: ThatCitiShow @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 20:58:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Obama has those quotes

going back to 1995. During the presidential campaign he didn't even give them lip service in order to wrest the black vote from Hillary Clinton. Many of those primaries he won were in the South, remember. Blacks folks weren't on board with Obama in Iowa, Hillary had the black vote until Bill Clinton acted like an asshat.

And as far as white gays are concerned, I do seem to remember that they went after "white" church institutions like the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church after Prop 8 passed. And many white gays that I know are estranged from their families and when they do decide (probably as they get older, and I've done the same thing) to make some sort of reconciliation, that process is not as easy, I have heard too many of their stories.

No, we choose to engage with black homophobes also, and we accept their garbage hook, line, and sinker. We sit in our churches. We sing solos and direct the choirs and get talked about and treated like shit all in the name of Jesus in our churches. We get oppressed in our churches. And say very little or nothing about it.

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by: kevinchi @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 23:00:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fine

Fine Kevinchi. You win. You guys live in your lazy negative worlds. I'm gonna keep fighting. I guess you'll just reap the benefits when us fighters have won.

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by: ThatCitiShow @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 15:54:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

no, I will continue

the good fight for equal rights and against oppression on multiple levels, particularly as it affects me personally. As if I am supposed to be more accepting of my oppression because the me and the oppressor happen to have the same ethnicity. That's Jasmyne Cannick logic. Please.

Now Obama did a good (albeit symbolic) thing today by signing on to the UN declaration decriminalizing homosexuality. Now I would love for him to at least begin the conversation over an inclusive ENDA bill during the next couple of months. And if he fights the good fight (win or lose) Obama will be my president.

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by: kevinchi @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 16:11:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That is good news!

Now Obama did a good (albeit symbolic) thing today by signing on to the UN declaration decriminalizing homosexuality.

Symbolism is important

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 17:11:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thank you for your heart-warming response, ThatCitiShow

I guess I'm done with Oldbrit. I've been running into too many white people (no offense to other whites) who make a show and dance farewell show to supporting blacks and racial minority rights. I wish they'd all just shut up and join their local KKK chapter so I'll never have to hear their pseudo outrage/disappointment ever again.

Just because you think I am not entitled to my feelings, doesn't mean that I am not allowed to have them.

It was tempting to tell you that I took action on your suggestion, resigned from the NAACP, and had contacted David Duke to join up, but that's not where I am right now.

As I pointed out, I know a lot of people (and they're not all white) who are rather disappointed and disillusioned about what's going on right now. I've invested over 40 years of my life in civil rights. I didn't expect that electing a black man president would automatically change things over night, but it never occurred to me that a black president wouldn't be absolutely clear about equal rights for all people.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 23:54:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thank you, Kevinchi

I'm disappointed because it never occurred to me that the first black president wouldn't support equal rights for all people as a core value and top-priority issue.

I am tired, but more than that, I feel like I've had the wind knocked out of me.

More importantly, I wrote about what I am feeling because I'm seeing a lot of people out there who are having similar stuff going on and many of them are not white.

An awful lot of racism is rearing its ugly head in response to Obama's election. The problem for me is that Obama has damaged his moral authority on civil rights issues by not standing up for equal rights for all people.

I defended Obama against these racist attacks to my son the other day, and his response was, "He doesn't support equal rights for all people, so he deserves what he gets."

What was I supposed to say to that?

It's all very scary and it isn't what I expected.

I, too support Obama, but I just don't have much interest in helping him or defending him.

This will pass, but for the moment, I'm focusing on other things because it is simply too painful to see what's going on.  

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 00:09:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What were you supposed to say?

What were you supposed to say? Are you kidding me? You're supposed to say that everyone has the right to critize Obama's policies and beliefs but when it comes to someone insulting Obama's race and by proxy, dehumanize ever black and biracial person, you condemn anyone who does so.

It isn't rocket science people. Not rocket science at all.

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by: ThatCitiShow @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 15:59:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Umm, I don't think so....

According to you, ThatCitiShow, I am a racist and you are done with me.

So, why are you asking the question and why should I answer?

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 17:03:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're completely right Oldbrit

Obviously its best not to expect anything good from you. You've won. You got what you wanted.

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by: ThatCitiShow @ Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:26:09 AM CST

[ Parent ]

oldbrit, I am waiting

for the moment that Barack Obama goes back to being true to his unequivocal positions on equal rights for all that he was as a State Senator and as a United States Senator.

When he does that, than black folks will start calling him uppity again. They did that here in Chicago for years and years. That was the politician I fell in love with.

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by: kevinchi @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 16:20:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I am not a supporter of Obama, never was.

To me, this isn't about Obama, or Holder, or some African American homobigot. It isn't about the man. To me, this is about the idea, the idea of equality, the world that I want to live in.

IOW, MLK's Dream.

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by: rfloh @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 20:39:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The first thing that popped into my mind upon viewing the cartoon here was Travis the chimp who was killed by the cop in Connecticutt.

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by: Pollyanna @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:03:21 AM CST

Travis - so sad

I thought the cartoon related to shooting Travis also.  And his owner lost both eyes and a nose I heard on CNN this morning.  She and Travis slept together in the same bed for 15 years.  Heartbreaking story.  The cops had to shoot him for other peoples safety.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

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by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 12:46:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A man was mauled by a pet chimp

a few months ago and he lost his genitals, most of his face, and all of his fingers in the attack.

These animals belong in the wild. They are incredibly dangerous.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 12:56:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not the owner

it was a FRIEND of the owner that was mauled by this animal, hopped up on Xanax laced tea that the owner made for him.


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 14:29:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

An awful story all the way around, isn't it?

I found myself feeling various measures of sympathy for each person - and the beast - involved in this sorry event, but perhaps the least for the owner. Anyone who keeps potentially dangerous exotic animals needs to be clear-headed about the risks which never go away no matter how long you keep them as pets or, worse, "members of the family."  I don't think I've ever heard a more chilling 911 call.

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by: Pollyanna @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 17:42:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]