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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
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He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


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(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

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"A nutty lesbian blogger."
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A diifferent 'compromise': backing covenant marriage

by: Pam Spaulding

Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 11:00:00 AM EDT


Remember the bogus "compromise" on marriage equality recently proposed by David Blankenhorn and Jonathan Rauch in their NYT op-ed "A Reconciliation on Gay Marriage">? You know the one that had equality supporters doing all the giving up to appease equality opponents by creating separate-and-unequal federal civil unions with additional faith-based protections for religious conservatives (as if their rights weren't already protected).
It would work like this: Congress would bestow the status of federal civil unions on same-sex marriages and civil unions granted at the state level, thereby conferring upon them most or all of the federal benefits and rights of marriage. But there would be a condition: Washington would recognize only those unions licensed in states with robust religious-conscience exceptions, which provide that religious organizations need not recognize same-sex unions against their will. The federal government would also enact religious-conscience protections of its own. All of these changes would be enacted in the same bill.
That's a non-starter, as I blogged back in February, since the Religious Right has no interest in compromise.

I think a proposal floated by Steven Waldman, editor in chief of Beliefnet, holds much more promise if you want to talk about compromise. He suggests that gays and lesbians should propose tightening divorce laws, bundled with the call for marriage equality, specifically by supporting the idea of covenant marriage (something David Blankenhorn actually supports as well). It's a more intellectually feasible way of revealing those who profess their goal is to "protect" marriage versus the homophobes.

So, my idea challenges gay activists: if it's true that you revere the institution of marriage, put your energy and clout toward helping to strengthen it in a variety of ways (more on the particulars below).

Then, it challenges anti-gay marriage forces: if you are truly concerned mostly about the future of marriage, here's a way you can insure that gay marriage will actually strengthen not harm that institution.

Of course what this potential offer would also do is smoke out those gay marriage opponents who have used the sanctity of marriage argument as an excuse for their real motivation, which is to deny gays equal status.

And the fundies cannot object to the "particulars" of covenant marriage; they come from Tony Perkins and the Family Research Council, which you can read here. Some examples:

* Longer Waiting Periods: Lengthening the waiting period, which is the amount of time a couple must wait after filing for divorce or the time they must live separately before filing, is another way states have limited no-fault divorce. [NOTE: this is already the case for those of us who married in Canada; if you want a divorce, you have to live in the country for a year in order to file.]

* Premarital Education: Several states have passed premarital education laws in an effort to help couples prepare for marriage and avoid divorce...The premarital course may include topics such as communication skills and may be taught by licensed psychologists, social workers or therapists, as well as clergy. Again, nothing spectacularly overbearing about this concept either.

* Mediation: Some family courts in Michigan plan to have mediators trained in focused thinking mediation, a highly effective technique that teaches couples how to listen to each other and to resolve conflict, thereby reducing acrimony between spouses.

Waldman:

I'm sure there are many other ideas worth considering. (How about making it illegal for 13 year olds to marry?) But the point is that gays who want to get married because they revere the institution of marriage should have no problem endorsing such efforts. And conservatives who really are tolerant but fear for the institution of marriage, should view this as an outstanding deal, recruiting passionate new advocates for key parts of the sanctity-of-marriage agenda.
OK. So now we have some nice points to launch a discussion. What do you think of this proposal versus the Blankenhorn/Rauch compromise?
Pam Spaulding :: A diifferent 'compromise': backing covenant marriage
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These are much better
though I do think there should be exceptions for the waiting period for domestic abuse situations.

I am the lizard queen!

Not having them is the point
The entire point of covenant marriage is to trap women in negative situations so waiting period exceptions would go against the entire notion.

Obviously, trading away women's rights for gay rights is another "compromise" I would oppose.  


[ Parent ]
I think a distinction needs to be made...
between no-fault divorces and divorces due to adultery on the one hand, where I think the limitations should apply, and divorces due to spouse-abuse on the other, where the restrictions would put the person at risk.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.


[ Parent ]
I should have mentioned
even though this is an improvement on the last "compromise" they offered, there are only two compromises I will accept: marriage for all, or my preferred option, civil unions for all, gay or straight. You want a marriage, get from the religion of your choice. But that's probably not realistic. That said, anything less than those two compromises is degrading.

I am the lizard queen!

[ Parent ]
I can't stand ...
.... this 'marriage for the religion' BS.

[ Parent ]
I don't care either way
As long as it's equal.

I am the lizard queen!

[ Parent ]
Would you care to explain
why you labeled my post as trolling? I have no problem with someone disagreeing, but I think I deserve a little more respect for my viewpoints.

I am the lizard queen!

[ Parent ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


[ Parent ]
"That said, anything less than those two compromises is degrading"


[ Parent ]
OK, I'm sorry
... I get extremely angry when I read all this advertising about giving marriage to the religions.

I think it would be disastrous to give fundies the opportunity to show people that they have the 'real' marriage while civil marriage is replaced with gay civil unions for everybody. (... even if this religious marriage would have zero legal meaning.)


[ Parent ]
I can understand that
but labeling me a troll because you disagree with my viewpoint is not productive. Really, it doesn't matter what we do, they'll always claim that theirs are the real marriages. Don't forget, there are many religions that do want to marry us.

I am the lizard queen!

[ Parent ]
Federal Civil Unions for All
applies to SGL, DGL, and non-conjugal couples...some of you folks don't believe this is coming...more state houses are passing Civil Union/DP bills than marriage ones...and the MAJORITY of Americans SUPPORT Civil Unions as opposed to marriage...those that doubt me...do you not see the Hawaii/Illinois connection? I'm not going to spell it out because...I've been sworn to secrecy...and we're winning...  

[ Parent ]
OOH!
I'm not going to spell it out because...I've been sworn to secrecy

Can I be sworn to secrecy, too? And do I get a super-secret decoder ring?

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
Sorry Brother...
the swearing in ceremony is over. However, you already have a super-secret decoder ring...and you are using it.  

[ Parent ]
something to note about civil unions
is that everyone, the lovers and the haters alike, agree that they are a steppingstone to real marriage for all.  just look at nj, vt and nh.  none of them is satisfied with cu's and each of those states is working on upgrading cu's to marriage.  here in washington, we're working on creating full-fledgfed dp's not as an endpoint, but as a mechanism for facilitating the marriage equality discussion.  and finally, you'll pry my bona fide marriage from my cold dead hands.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.


[ Parent ]
Same here in Illinois, we
had 2 bills, a marriage and a civil unions bill. The Civil Unions bill mad it out of committe (which it didn't a couple of years ago)

[ Parent ]
No Need to Pry...
You will have a bona fide marriage AND a bona fide civil union...You'll get a 2Fer, baby! If you so desire.

[ Parent ]
Are you in Skull & Bones or something?
If you want to advocate for civil unions as opposed to marrigae equality than advocate for it. But I agree with Queerin SoCal, that secrecy shit is just stupid.  

[ Parent ]
that's "made", "marriage", and "committee"


[ Parent ]
I Love You Brother!
See you in the Promised Land...one day you'll understand. It's all good and it's all LOVE!  

[ Parent ]
It's Working Just Fine!
Here's to Committed Couple Equality.  I love y'all. You keep me on my toes.  Peace and blessings, brothers and sisters.

[ Parent ]
These 'deals' share a flaw
which is that they propose that we gain strength by allying with the author's particular group of friends. And neither of them has enough friends for that to be worth pissing off all the feminists we'd have to piss off. I'd rather continue pissing off the Catholic Church, thanks.

The basic problem is that the Blankenhorns and Waldmans of the 'pro-family' movement are a tiny minority within their own alliance. They have no political influence on the bulk of our enemies, who really are in the fight against our equality because they irrationally believe that our happiness threatens their own.

The vast majority of those who are actively fighting against marriage equality are also fighting against other forms of relationship recognition.

That's why our political efforts should focus on moving the most reasonable 10% of the 30% of Americans who don't see why they should care--and exposing the 20% of the 28% actively fighting us who are motivated by sheer bigotry.

The more we're the victims of thuggery and intimidation by semi-pro anti-gays, the better off we are. Because we're trying to move the apathetic, not the hostile.


But wait, there's more!


And pissing off for the feminists
means, quite often, pissing of a large percentage of our own community.  Between the lesbian and bisexual feminists and the gay male pro-feminists...yeah, I can only imagine that this "covenant marriage" "compromise" is designed mostly to try to create the impression that LGBT people "don't really support marriage".  Sure, we can point out that "covenant marriages" are designed to give legal backing to both theocracy and patriarchy, and that they're intended to undo precisely the most positive change in marriage (movement towards equal status for women in the relationship)...but they have their talking point, which the MSM will never contradict.

[ Parent ]
Thanks, but no thanks!
Covenant marriage is part of a web of regulation sought by theocrats; and they can keep shoving it where the sun doesn't shine.  They're not talking about a covenant between two people... Jonathan and David, Naomi and Ruth... but the Judeo-Christic notion of human intimate relationships being ordained by a higher power and skewed in favor of the patriarchy.  F*** that!

Still, 1928 days ago I chose to marry my partner in Toronto, with the union solemnized by Rev. Brent Hawkes whom I had witnessed two and half years earlier performing the Reading of the Banns in protest.  We wed with full knowledge of the limitations on divorce in Ontario -- it's live in the province for a year -- but wanted to have our union in place for the day in our lives when marriage equality includes us here in the U.S.


Its more that than
"They have no political influence on the bulk of our enemies, who really are in the fight against our equality because they irrationally believe that our happiness threatens their own.

The vast majority of those who are actively fighting against marriage equality are also fighting against other forms of relationship recognition."

They don't want us to have any recognition because they've been brainwashed to believe that we are wretched, totally immoral, perverted deviates whose sin (per their Bible) is greater than any other sin known to humankind.  The thought of giving us any rights or recognition signals the end of the world.


Not quite
whose sin (per their Bible) is greater than any other sin known to humankind

There are actually a whole bunch of sins that are classed the same as homosexuality. They just ignore most of them, because they're inconvenient, or illegal to punish, or we've evolved to a little higher moral standard than prevailed when it was written. (Does anyone in this country have the village elders stone to death their disobedient children?)

Remember, I did say a little higher moral standard. In selected portions of the country.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
La.?
Doesn't La. and a couple other states already have convenant marriage?

Pam,
J'aime ma Peau



disclaimer
I didn't say I was for Walden's proposal, only that it is at least intellectually honest in comparison to the first trial balloon. I agree that covenant marriage makes sense if you assume there is no patriarchy in place that ensures women do not have true parity. Of course this isn't the case, just as civil unions aren't in reality, equivalent to civil marriage in practice.

It's silly
Marriage is marriage, the "covenant marriage" nonsense is just another attempt by evangelicals to intrude into the civil marriage contract.  What precisely needs to be revealed? That the fundies are anti gay?  Not exactly a revelation there.

Meddling in our lives and relationships
Arguments about the specifics of marriage to one side (though I have to say I agree with the bulk of the above comments on covenant marriage), it has always seemed to me that one of the great advantages of being gay is that we get to define our own relationships, whether within marriage  or not.  We are free to build bonds that work for us, as individuals, unfettered by society's notions of what a "proper marriage" should be.  

While I understand and support all the arguments for gay marriage equality, I must confess that I'm one of those people who are a bit conflicted.  Trading our freedoms and yielding to patriarchy and hetero-normativity in exchange for "equality" is on balance a good thing, I think.  But covenant marriage would restrict our freedom even more, with no palpable gain, that I can see.  Again, where is the compromise from the other side?  They get to control our lives even more than they do already, and we get...what?

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


Fundies should be fighting for Covenant Marriage for all, anyway
I've always said that THAT's what would preserve the sanctity of marriage, which destroyed long before gay people tried to get their limp wrists on it.

These people are idiots.


the problem with the proposal lies in this line...
"Then, it challenges anti-gay marriage forces: if you are truly concerned mostly about the future of marriage, here's a way you can insure that gay marriage will actually strengthen not harm that institution. "

There has yet to be a cogent argument that my marriage threatens anyone, or has any effect on anyone but ourselves and our loved ones.

This indicates the basic bias.


I love the framing there, that your comment points to
'Truly concerned mostly about the future of marriage'?

Uh, no. I'm truly concerned mostly about...the effects that marriage equality, or being fenced out of same, does to my own family.

I'm truly concerned that my aging mother, and my sister who provides for most of her care, are not also burdened by responsibilities for my welfare that my wife is happy to take on as my chosen next of kin.

I'm truly concerned that my child is not injured financially or in terms of social capital by being stigmatized as illegitimate.

My true concerns really, truly are about the practical effects of both equality and exclusion--not about some philosophical definition of 'what marriage means'.

It means I'm paying the married couple next door to have a stay-at-home parent through my state taxes, is what it means!

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
This really is a "non-starter"

All compromises that involve conservative "Christians" compromising their belief that homosexual unions are sinful are going to be non-starters, and receive about as much political and legal opposition as full and equal marriages for all.

An example from late last week on this hardline approach from our Quick Hits: Peter LaBarbera: 'Civil Unions' Legislation Is a Trojan Horse Leading to Homosexual 'Marriage':

Utah's "Common Ground" package, Illinois "civil unions" bill would help courts impose "same-sex marriage"
"Recent court decisions in other states have similarly made clear that providing benefits to same-sex couples, no matter how minor and even if accompanied by statement of intent meant to protect marriage, will be treated as evidence that the legislature does not object to redefining marriage.

"In each of the State high court decisions mandating a redefinition of marriage (in Massachusetts, California and Connecticut), the majority opinions have pointed to the extension of benefits to same-sex couples in those States in support of its conclusion.[3] This was the case in Massachusetts even though the legislature had specified in one bill that "[n]othing in this act shall be construed so as to legitimize or validate a 'homosexual marriage', so-called."
- William Duncan, Marriage Law Foundation

TAKE ACTION:  "Civil unions" and "domestic partner" bills are used by activist judges to legalize "same-sex marriage," as Bill Duncan of the Marriage Law Foundation shows below. Such bills are being considered in several states. "Sexual orientation/Gender Identity" bills create the foundation for artificial, homosexuality-based "rights," culminating in homosexual "marriage."  A "civil unions" bill just advanced in Illinois, and several pro-homosexual bills will be considered soon in Florida. Take action in the following states (this list is not comprehensive)...

There is no compromise. When politicians discuss the idea of legal civil unions instead of legal marriages for same gender couples, conservative "Christians" are as just as opposed to both concepts -- they believe homosexuality is sin, and government apporving either civil unions or marriage is still perceived by the religious right as government approving of sin.

Then add to this that LGBT people, as a community, seem in no mood to compromise on marriage either -- this covenant marriage idea really is just another half-measure that essentially no one is going to support.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


Seperate marriage from weddings
According to Wikipedia all marriages in Japan are civil only, whereas weddings performed in (say) a temple are not legally significant. Why not do this and completely divorce marriage from religion? Make all marriages civil marriages, and let the couple have a religious wedding if they wish. This is the perfect solution. If all marriages are civil, marriage will be open to all, while no religious figure will be forced to perform a same sex wedding if they are against it. While this is a great compromise, the chances of the religious wrong actually accepting it are pretty low.

France has the same system...
of separate civil and religious ceremonies. The UK does as well, but only for Civil Partnerships, not civil marriage.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.


[ Parent ]
And Spain, Germany, Turkey, Argentina, Japan and Russia etc.


[ Parent ]
question
Does completely separating the ceremonies increase the cost to the government? (Just a question, I am all for separating them.)

[ Parent ]
I'm conflicted
When I read the first 'compromise', I was furious.  That is not a compromise, just like the Republican definition of bipartisanship is anything but.  Reading the second version, I actually agree with it as a political tool--to force purported 'defenders of the sanctity of marriage' to actually have to change their own behaviors, rather than make everyone else live by their rules.  However, as a practical matter, no, I would not support a covenant marriage.  

The other reason I'm conflicted is because I am not a proponent of marriage in general.  I am not married; I have no desire to marry; I think that our society is way too pro-coupling as it is.  However, as long as one sector of the population has the right to those privileges, so should everybody.  That is why, despite my personal reservations about marriage, I am strongly against Prop. 8 or any laws that do not fully support LGBT marriage rights.


the fundamental problem is a "compromise" that still makes fundy Xian beliefs into civil law
Let me see if I understand this. Waldman's compromise is for gays to acquiesce to the adoption of far more rigid marriage rules and restrictions than most straight couples would accept? Rules that are purely derived from a particular fundamentalist Christian view of what marriage is? And then he has the gall to suggest that if we're serious about marriage, we'll be eager to make it more difficult for everyone to get out of a marriage that just isn't working out? My girlfriend and I would love to strengthen the institution of marriage--but we'd prefer to strengthen it on the merits of our individual mature, healthy relationship, not by requiring that everyone else stay in their marriages for life.

Instead of covenant marriage...
or plain marriage, I would prefer a 5 or 10 year marriage contract.  If you want to stay married then you have to renew it, if you don't then it is just over.  Whose stupid idea was it to be married for life?  The human animal isn't naturally monogamous sexually.  How about scaring christians with converting all marriages to civil unions?  If they don't want to share the word, take the word away.

For what it is worth, I support the Fair Tax because all those IRS laws would disappear, along with the IRS.  All those couple rules that we don't get would not be in play.  That would solve a number of problems for all couples that way.


Really?
All our problems come from the IRS? Who knew the IRS decided health benefits? Or Social Security benefits? Or pension benefits? Or immigration policy?

My, what an active little organization that IRS is!

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
There is one and only one compromise
that makes any sense.  Give the fundies exactly what they SAY THEY WANT.  Then see if they REALLY want it or not.  GIVE the word marriage to the churches.

States will issue civil union licenses to BOTH gay and straight couples.  All legal rights and responsibilities go along with these civil unions for both straights and gays.

Individualk churches can perform religious marriage cerimonies for any couples they want to.  And, they can refuse any couples they want to (just like they can NOW).

A religious cerimony is unnecessary and any couple that has one gains NO ADDITIONAL legal rights or responsibilities.  Religious cerimonies would be solely between the couple, their god and their church.  

These religious marriages would be treated just like any other religious cerimony such as baptism.  The government would have no say in these cerimonies at all.

This would give EVERYBODY exactly what they have been asking for.  What do bet that no one on the right would actually accept this even though it's exactly what they say they want.  Leave marriage to the churches.


Just one more little thing ...
...Totally outlaw divorce. When you marry, you're bloody well married forever, till death do ya. Now, we can't undo divorces that have already happened (ex post facto laws are unconstitutional) but if you've been married and divorced you may not marry again as long as your ex is alive. Ron Reagan wouldn't have been able to marry Nancy while Jane Wyman was alive, Newt Gingrich would have had to wait for his first wife to die of cancer before running off with Number Two, and Rush "Bouncy Bouncy" Limbaugh? I don't even know how many wives he's gone through in his career, but I'm sure it would have prevented a lot of suffering all around!

Just to be on the safe side though, we should probably increase funding for investigating the "accidental deaths of spouses".


[ Parent ]
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